SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight

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SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:57 am

SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi


http://suttacentral.net/sn1.12/en/

At Savatthi. Standing to one side, that devata recited this verse in the presence of the Blessed One:

    “One who has sons delights in sons,
    One with cattle delights in cattle.
    Acquisitions truly are a man’s delight;
    Without acquisitions one does not delight.”
The Blessed One:

    “One who has sons sorrows over sons,
    One with cattle sorrows over cattle.
    Acquisitions truly are a man’s sorrows;
    Without acquisitions one does not sorrow.”

Note

[21] Upadhi, “acquisitions” (from upa + dhā, “to rest upon”) means literally “that upon which something rests,” i.e., the “foundations” or “paraphernalia” of existence. The word has both objective and subjective extensions. Objectively, it refers to the things acquired, i.e., one’s assets and possessions; subjectively, to the act of appropriation rooted in craving. In many instances the two senses merge, and often both are intended. The word functions as a close counterpart of upādāna, “clinging,” to which,
however, it is not etymologically related. See in this connection 12:66 and II, n. 187,
    Idaṃ kho dukkhaṃ upadhinidānaṃ, etc. Spk: It has its source in “acquisition as the aggregates” (khandhupadhinidānaṃ); for here the five aggregates are intended by “acquisition.” On upadhi, see I, n. 21. The standard exegetical analysis of upadhi is fourfold: as defilements, aggregates, sensual pleasures, and volitional formations. As upadhi is conditioned by taṇhā, one might contend that here upadhi is synonymous with upādāna. Spk, however, does not endorse this interpretation, and the fact that upadhi is declared the basis for aging-and-death and the other types of suffering supports Spk’s gloss khandhupadhi. Possibly a double meaning is intended: upadhi as the aggregates is the immediate condition for aging-and-death, while upadhi as equivalent to upādāna is the remote condition for existence and birth, which in turn is the remote condition for aging-and-death. On upadhi as the origin of suffering, see Sn p. 141,7-8: yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ sambhoti sabbaṃ upadhipaccayā.
and Sn p. 141.
Spk (along with other commentaries) offers a fourfold classification of upadhi: (i) kāmūpadhi, acquisitions as sensual pleasures and material possessions; (ii) khandhūpadhi, the five aggregates; (iii) kilesūpadhi, defilements, which are the foundation for suffering in the realm of misery; and (iv) abhisaṅkhārūpadhi, volitional formations, accumulations of kamma, which are the foundation for all suffering in saṃsāra. In the deva’s verse upadhi is used in the first sense.

In his reply the Buddha turns the devatā’s expression “one without acquisitions” (nirupadhi) on its head by using the term as a designation for the arahant, who is free from all four kinds of upadhi and thus completely free from suffering. The pair of verses recurs below at 4:8, with Māra as the interlocutor.
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Re: SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:03 am

SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight
Translated by John Ireland


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... #passage-3

[Devataa:]
    Possessing children one finds pleasure in them,
    A herdsman is pleased with his cattle;
    Man's possessions bring pleasure to him,
    Without possessions he finds no pleasure.
[The Lord:]
    Possessing children one grieves for them,
    A herdsman grieves for his cattle;
    Man's possessions bring grief to him,
    Without possessions he has no grief.
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Re: SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:46 am

Upadhi, “acquisitions”, appears in many suttas. For example
MN 26 Ariyapariyesanā Sutta: The Noble Search
http://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/

“And what may be said to be subject to birth? Wife and children are subject to birth, men and women slaves, goats and sheep, fowl and pigs, elephants, cattle, horses, and mares, gold and silver are subject to birth. These acquisitions are subject to birth; and one who is tied to these things, infatuated with them, and utterly committed to them, being himself subject to birth, seeks what it also subject to birth.

I considered: ‘This Dhamma that I have attained is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, takes delight in attachment, rejoices in attachment. It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna. If I were to teach the Dhamma, others would not understand me, and that would be wearying and troublesome for me.’

See also: http://www.leighb.com/mn26_19.htm

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight

Postby starter » Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:14 am

Hi Mike and other friends,

Thanks for the sutta. As to Upadhi, I found the following translations in the Pali text Society's Pali-English Dictionary:

1) Upadhi : = Divy 224 upadhi is called a bond (saŋgo). Cp. opadhika. -- The upadhis were later systematized into a set of 10, which are given at Nd2 157 as follows: 5 taṇhɔ upadhis (taṇhā, diṭṭhi, kilesa, kamma, duccarita), āhār-- upadhi, paṭigh˚, catasso upādinnā dhātuyo u. (viz. kāma, diṭṭhi, sīlabbata, attavāda; see D iii.230), cha ajjhattikāni āyatanāni u., cha viññāṇa-- kāyā u. Another modified classification see at Brethren p. 398.

2) Upadhi : syn. with kilesa or taṇhā, cp. nirupadhi & anupadhi); S A. = pañcakkhandhā, S ii.108. At M i 162 (cp. Sn 33 = S i.6 = i.107) wife and children, flocks and herds, silver and gold are called upadhayo. upadhi is the root of sorrow ib. 454; S ii.108; Sn 728 = 1051 = Th i.152 and the rejection of all upadhis is Nibbāna D ii.36. (cp. S i.136; iii.133; v.226;

3) Upadhi [fr. upa + dhā, cp. upadahati & BSk. upadhi Divy 50, 224, 534] 1. putting down or under, foundation, basis, ground, substratum (of rebirth) S i.117, 124, 134, 186; A ii.24 (˚sankhaya); iii.382 (id.); iv.150 (˚kkhaya); It 21, 69; Sn 364, 728

I tend to think that Upadhi probably means "bond" (attachment) in the following teaching considering "craving" has been used right after it:

"... the stilling of all volitions (清静无为,无欲无求), the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna."

In addiiton, although Saṅkhāra has been translated as formations, as I recall in at least one sutta the Buddha used this word to mean volitions, and defined the six types of volitions. Also the Buddha seemed to have the habit to use many synonyms to illustrate the same meaning (which is very helpful for us now to understand what he meant), and "volitions" and "attachments" appear to fit here better than "formations" and "acquisitions", respectively. Just to share my thoughts.

Metta to all!

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Re: SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight

Postby starter » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:29 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Upadhi, “acquisitions”, appears in many suttas. For example
MN 26 Ariyapariyesanā Sutta: The Noble Search
http://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/

I considered: ‘This Dhamma that I have attained is profound, hard to see and hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, unattainable by mere reasoning, subtle, to be experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, takes delight in attachment, rejoices in attachment. It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna. If I were to teach the Dhamma, others would not understand me, and that would be wearying and troublesome for me.’

See also: http://www.leighb.com/mn26_19.htm
:anjali:
Mike


Another clue to the meaning of Upadhi as "attachment" in this specific teaching is that the Buddha was thinking about the attachment of this generation (see the highlighted). So it's only natural that "this truth" is about "the relinquishing of all attachments".

In addition, "this truth" refers to ‘This Dhamma that I have attained ..., peaceful and sublime, ... to be experienced by the wise", which appears to be nibbana with residue ("formations"), although it's possible that the Buddha could also refer to the meditative attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling. It makes more sense to translate the stilling of all Saṅkhāra into the stilling of all "volitions", and nibbana here could include both types (with and without residue).

Metta to all!

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Re: SN 1.12 Nandati: Delight

Postby starter » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:53 pm

To my understanding of the Buddha's teaching, it is not the acquisitions, but the passion and craving for and attachment to the acquisitions that we shall relinquish. For instance, we can still have pleasant feelings (which is part of the five aggregates) as a spontaneous first response, but we shouldn't rejoice over/delight in such feelings as an active second response, and should remove the attachment to such feelings, as the Buddha taught:

"The passion for his resolves [in sensual pleasure] is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their [passion and] desire." (from AN 6.63 Nibbedhika Sutta: Penetrative)

"Having directly known earth as earth, he does not conceive [“I am”] earth, he does not conceive [“I am”] in earth, he does not conceive [“I am”] apart from earth, he does not conceive earth as 'mine,' he does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has understood that delight is the root of suffering ..." (MN1)

“You must remove all attachment to craving, above, below, and across the middle, for with whatever they are attached to in the world, with just that Māra follows a man. Therefore knowing this, the mindful monk should not be attached to anything in the world, seeing that with what is called attachment and clinging, these people are clinging
to the realm of Death.” (From The Way to the Beyond, http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/E ... Beyond.pdf)

Metta to all!
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