MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

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MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:15 pm

Majjhima Nikaya 38
Mahatanhasankhayasuttam
The Longer Discourse on the Destruction of Craving
from http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm

Thus have I heard:
Once the Blessed One was living at Savatthi in Jeta's grove, Anathapindika's park. At that time a pernicious view had arisen in a bhikkhu named Sati, the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else." Then many bhikkhus heard that this pernicious view had arisen in the bhikkhu named, Sati the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

Then those bhikkhus approached the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, and asked: "Friend, Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Yes, friends, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

Then those bhikkhus thinking to dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, cross examined him, asked for reasons and discussed with him: "Friend, Sati do not say that, do not misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say that. The Blessed One has shown in various ways, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness." Even when so much was said, he held on to his pernicious view tenaciously and would not give it up and said: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

When the bhikkhus could not dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, they approached the Blessed One, paid homage, sat to one side and said: "Venerable sir, this pernicious view has arisen in a bhikkhu named Sati, the son of a fisherman: "As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else." Then we approached the bhikkhu Sati and asked him: "Friend, Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Venerable sir, the bhikkhu Sati said to us: "Yes, friends, ‘as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’." Then we bhikkhus, thinking to dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, cross examined him, asked for reasons and discussed with him: 'Friend, Sati do not say that, do not misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say that. The Blessed One has shown in various ways, that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness'." Even when we cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied together with him, he held on to his pernicious view tenaciously and would not give it up. As we could not dissuade the bhikkhu Sati from that pernicious view, we came to inform you about it."

Then the Blessed One addressed a certain bhikkhu and said, "Come bhikkhu, in my name, call the bhikkhu Sati, tell him the Teacher wants him." That bhikkhu consented and approached the bhikkhu Sati and told him, "Friend, the Teacher wants you." The bhikkhu Sati said "Yes, friend" and approached the Blessed One, paid homage and sat to one side.

Then the Blessed One said: "Sati, is it true, that such an pernicious view has arisen to you. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’?"

"Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else."

"Sati, what is that consciousness?"

"Venerable sir, it is that which feels and experiences, that which reaps the results of good and evil actions done here and there."

"Foolish man, to whom do you know me having taught the Dhamma like this. Haven’t I taught, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet you, foolish man, on account of your wrong view, you misrepresent me, as well as destroy yourself and accumulate much demerit, for which you will suffer for a long time."

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, what do you think, has this this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, learned anything from this dispensation?" "No, venerable sir."

When this was said the bhikkhu Sati became silent, unable to reply back, and sat with drooping shoulders and eyes turned down. Then the Blessed One, knowing that the bhikkhu Sati had become silent, unable to reply back, and was sitting with drooping shoulders and with eyes turned down, told him: "Foolish man, you will be known on account of this pernicious view; now I will question the bhikkhus on this."

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus: "Bhikkhus, do you too know of this Teaching, the wrong view of the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, on account of which he misrepresents us and also destroys himself and accumulates much suffering?"

"No, venerable sir. In various ways we have been taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness."

"Good, bhikkhus! Good that you know the Dhamma taught by me. In various ways I have taught that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, this bhikkhu Sati, son of a fisherman, by holding to this wrong view, misrepresents us and destroys himself and accumulates much demerit, and it will be for his suffering for a long time.

"Bhikkhus, consciousness is reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. If consciousness arises on account of eye and forms, it is reckoned as eye consciousness. If on account of ear and sounds it arises, it is reckoned as ear consciousness. If on account of nose and smells it arises, it is reckoned as nose consciousness. If on account of tongue and tastes it arises, it is reckoned as tongue consciousness. If on account of body and touch it arises, it is reckoned as body consciousness. If on account of mind and mind-objects it arises, it is reckoned as mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as a fire is reckoned based on whatever that fire burns - fire ablaze on sticks is a stick fire, fire ablaze on twigs is a twig fire, fire ablaze on grass is a grass fire, fire ablaze on cowdung is a cowdung fire, fire ablaze on grain thrash is a grain thrash fire, fire ablaze on rubbish is a rubbish fire - so too is consciousness reckoned by the condition dependent upon which it arises. In the same manner consciousness arisen on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of nose and smells is nose consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of body and touch is body consciousness. Consciousness arisen on account of mind and mind-objects is mind consciousness.

"Bhikkhus, do you see, This has arisen?" "Yes, venerable sir". "Do you see it arises supported by That?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, Do you see if the support ceases, the arising too ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, when you are not sure whether something has arisen do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir." "When you are not sure why something has arisen, do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when you are not sure that with ceasing of a certain support, that the arisen too would cease, do doubts arise?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you see with right wisdom, that something has arisen?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you see with right wisdom, that something arises with a support?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do your doubts fade when you sees with right wisdom that with the cessation of its supports, the arisen also ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, This has arisen - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, This has arisen with That as support - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, when that support ceases, the arising too ceases - are your doubts dispelled about that?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, as it really is, with right wisdom, this is arising?." "Yes,venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that this arises supported?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that when the support ceases the arising too ceases?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, do you understand this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you do not covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, would you then know this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, these are the four finds of supports for the maintenance of beings that have arisen and as help for those seeking birth. What four? First is material food, coarse or fine; the second is contact; mental volition is the third and consciousness is the fourth.

"Bhikkhus, from what do these four supports originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"These four supports originate, rise, take birth and develop from craving.

"Bhikkhus, from what does craving originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"Craving originates, rises, takes birth and develops from feelings.

"Bhikkhus, from what do feelings originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"Feelings originate, rise, take birth and develop from contact.

"Bhikkhus, from what does contact originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"Contact originates, rises, takes birth and develops from the sixfold sense base.

"Bhikkhus, from what does the sixfold sense base originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"The sixfold sense base originates, rises, takes birth and develops from name and form.

"Bhikkhus, from what do name and form originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"Name and form originate, rise, take birth and develop from consciousness.

"Bhikkhus, from what does consciousness originate, rise, take birth and develop?.

"Consciousness originates rises, takes birth and develops from [volitional] formations.

"Bhikkhus, from what do [volitional] formations originate, rise, take birth and develop?

"[Volitional] Formations originate, rise, take birth and develop from ignorance.

"Thus bhikkhus, from ignorance arise [volitional] formations, from [volitional] formations consciousness, from consciousness name and form, from name and form the sixfold sense base, from the sixfold sense base contact, from contact feelings, from feelings craving, from craving clinging, from clinging being, from being birth, from birth old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, it is said, decay and death arise from birth. Do decay and death arise from birth or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, decay and death, arise from birth. We understand it thus: Decay and death arise from birth."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, birth arises from being. Does birth arise from being or not or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, birth arises from being. We understand it thus: Birth arises from being."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, being arises from clinging. Does being arise from clinging or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, being rises from clinging. We understand it thus: Being arises from clinging."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, clinging arises from craving. Does clinging arise from craving or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, craving arises from clinging. We understand it thus: Craving arises from clinging."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, craving arises from feelings. Does craving arise from feelings or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, craving arises from feelings. We understand it thus: Craving arises from feelings."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, feelings arise from contact. Do feelings arise from contact or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, feelings arise from contact. We understand it thus: Feelings arise from contact."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, contact arises from the sixfold sense base. Does contact arise from the sixfold sense base or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, contact arises from the sixfold sense base. We understand it thus: Contact arises from the sixfold sense base."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, the sixfold sense base arises from name and form. Does the sixfold sense base arise from name and form or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, the sixfold sense base arises from name and form. We understand it thus: the sixfold sense base arises from name and form."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, name and form arise from consciousness. Do name and form arise from consciousness or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, name and form arise from consciousness. We understand it thus: Name and form arise from consciousness."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, consciousness arise from [volitional] formations. Does consciousness arise from [volitional] formations or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, consciousness arises from [volitional] formations. We understand it thus: Consciousness arises from [volitional] formations."

"Bhikkhus, it is said, [volitional] formations arise from ignorance. Do [volitional] formations arise from ignorance or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, [volitional] formations arise from ignorance. We understand it thus: [Volitional] Formations arise from ignorance."

"Good, Bhikkhus! You say this and I also say it. Thus when this is present, that happens. When this arises, that arise. That is, because of ignorance, [volitional] formations arise. Because of [volitional] formations, consciousness arises. Because of consciousness, name and form arise. Because of name and form, the sixfold sense base arises. Because of the sixfold sense base, contact arises. Because of contact, feelings arise. Because of feelings, craving arises. Because of craving, clinging arises. Because of clinging, being arises. Because of being, birth arises. Because of birth old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"But with the complete cessation of ignorance, [volitional] formations cease. With the complete cessation of [volitional] formations, consciousness ceases. With the cessation of consciousness, name and form cease. With the cessation of name and form, the sixfold sense base ceases. With the cessation of the sixfold sense base, contact ceases. With the cessation of contact, feelings ceases. With the cessation of feelings, craving ceases. With the cessation of craving, clinging ceases. With the cessation of clinging, being ceases. With the cessation of being, birth ceases. With the cessation of birth, old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress cease. Thus is the complete cessation of dukkha.

"'When birth ceases old age, sickness and death cease' so it was said. Bhikkhus, do old age, sickness and death cease when birth ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen." "Venerable sir, when birth ceases, old age, sickness and death cease. Thus we understand it: 'when birth ceases, old age, sickness and death cease.'"

"'When being ceases, birth ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does birth cease when being ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when being ceases, birth ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When being ceases, birth ceases.'"

"'When clinging ceases, being ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does clinging cease when being ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when clinging ceases, being ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When clinging ceases, being ceases.'"

"'When craving ceases, clinging ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does craving cease when clinging ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when craving ceases, clinging ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When craving ceases, clinging ceases.'"

"'When feeling ceases, craving ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does craving cease when feeling ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when feeling ceases, craving ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When feeling ceases, craving ceases.'"

"'When contact ceases, feeling ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does feeling cease when contact ceases or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when contact ceases, feeling ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When contact ceases, feeling ceases.'"

"'When the sixfold sense base ceases, contact ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does the sixfold sense base cease when contact ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when the sixfold sense base ceases, contact ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When the sixfold sense base cease, contact ceases.'"

"'When name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does the sixfold sense base cease when name and form cease or does it not, or how do they happen?" "Venerable sir, when name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases. Thus we understand it: 'When name and form cease, the sixfold sense base ceases.'"

"'When consciousness ceases, name and form cease' so it was said. Bhikkhus, do name and form cease when consciousness ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when consciousness ceases, name and form cease. Thus we understand it: 'When consciousness ceases, name and form cease.'"

"'When [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases' so it was said. Bhikkhus, does consciousness cease when [volitional] formations cease or does it not, or how does it happen?." "Venerable sir, when [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases. Thus we understand it: 'when [volitional] formations cease, consciousness ceases.'"

"'When ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease' so it is said. Bhikkhus, do [volitional] formations cease when ignorance ceases, or do they not, or how does it happen?" "Venerable sir, when ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease. Thus we understand it: 'when ignorance ceases, [volitional] formations cease.'"

"Good, Bhikkhus! You say this and I also say it. Thus when this is present, that happens. When this arises, that arise. That is, because of ignorance, [volitional] formations arise. Because of [volitional] formations, consciousness arises. Because of consciousness, name and form arise. Because of name and form, the sixfold sense base arises. Because of the sixfold sense base, contact arises. Because of contact, feelings arise. Because of feelings, craving arises. Because of craving, clinging arises. Because of clinging, being arises. Because of being, birth arises. Because of birth, old age, sickness, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would your mind run to the past: 'Was I in the past or was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become?'" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, would you who know and see thus, run to the future: 'Will I be in the future, or will I not be in the future? What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? Having been what, what will I become?'" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, would you who know and see thus have doubts about the present: 'Am I, or am I not? What am I? How am I? Where did this being come from? Where will it go?'" "No, venerable sir."

"Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you say: 'We have reverence for the Teacher. We say it out of reverence to the Teacher'?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you say: 'Our recluse said it, these are the recluse’s words. But we do not say that'?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you acknowledge another teacher?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would you seek meaning in religious rites, ceremonies or festivals of other recluses and brahmins?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, is it that you yourself knowing, seeing and experiencing this speak thus?" "Yes, venerable sir."

"Good, O, Bhikkhus, I have led you in this Dhamma which is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves. It was in reference to this that it was said: 'Bhikkhus, this Dhamma is visible here and now, timeless, open to inspection, leading onwards and to be experienced by the wise for themselves'."

"Bhikkhus, a descent to the womb comes about with the coming together of three things: If there is the union of mother and father, but it is not the season of the mother and the one to be born is not present - then there is no descent to the womb. If there is the union of mother and father and it is the season of the mother but the one to be born is not present - then there is no descent to the womb. If there is the union of mother and father and it is the season of the mother and the one to be born is present - then there is a descent to the womb.

"The mother carries the embryo in her womb for nine or ten months with great anxiety and trouble. After nine or ten months she gives birth with great anxiety and trouble. She supports the newborn with her own blood; for in the Noble Ones’ dispensation mother’s milk is called blood.

"Bhikkhus, that child grows and his faculties mature and he plays games that children play, such as playing with toy ploughs, turning somersaults, making toy wind mills with palm leaves, making small carts and bows. Bhikkhus, that child grows and his faculties mature [further] and the youth enjoys the five strands of sense pleasures; he lives enticed by pleasing and agreeable forms cognizable by eye consciousness, agreeable sounds cognizable by ear consciousness, agreeable smells cognizable by nose consciousness, agreeable tastes cognizable by tongue consciousness and agreeable touches cognizable by body consciousness.

"On seeing a form with the eye he becomes greedy for a pleasant form, or averse to a disagreeable form. He abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. He does not know the deliverance of mind nor the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. He follows the path of agreeing and disagreeing and experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those [pleasant] feelings he appropriates them. This arouses interest in those feelings. That interest for feelings is clinging. From clinging, there arises being, from being arises birth, from birth old age, sickness and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"Hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a smell with the nose, tasting a taste with the tongue, feeling a touch with the body, thinking a thought with the mind, he becomes greedy for a pleasant experience, or averse to a disagreeable one. He abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. He does not know the deliverance of mind nor the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. He follows the path of agreeing and disagreeing and experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those [pleasant] feelings he appropriates them. This arouses interest in those feelings. That interest for feelings is clinging. From clinging, there arises being, from being arises birth, from birth old age, sickness and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. Thus arises the complete mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, a Tathagata arises in the world, a worthy one, perfectly enlightened, endowed with clear knowledge and conduct, accomplished, a knower of the world, unsurpassed trainer of men to be tamed, teacher of gods and men, enlightened and exalted. Having realized by his own direct knowledge this world with its gods, its Maras, and its Brahmas, this generation with its recluses and brahmins, its rulers and people, he makes it known to others. He teaches the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, possessing meaning and phrasing; he reveals the holy life that is fully complete and purified.

"A householder, or a householder's son, or one born into some other family, hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, he gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with such faith, he reflects: 'The household life is crowded, a path of dust. Going forth is like the open air. It is not easy for one dwelling at home to lead the perfectly complete, perfectly purified holy life, bright as a polished conch. Let me then shave off my hair and beard, put on saffron robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness.'

"After some time he abandons his accumulation of wealth, be it large or small; he abandons his circle of relatives, be it large or small; he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on saffron robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness.

"When he has thus gone forth, he lives restrained by the rules of the Patimokkha, possessed of proper behavior and resort. Abandoning the taking of life, he abstains from the taking of life. He dwells with his rod laid down, his knife laid down, scrupulous, merciful, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings.

"Abandoning the taking of what is not given, he abstains from taking what is not given. He takes only what is given, accepts only what is given, lives not by stealth but in honesty with a pure mind.

"Abandoning incelibacy, he lives a celibate life, aloof, refraining from the sexual act that is the villager's way.

"Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.

"Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord.

"Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing and pleasing to people at large.

"Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, and the Discipline. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal.

"He abstains from damaging seed and plant life.

"He eats only in one part of the day, refraining from food at night and from eating at improper times.

"He abstains from dancing, singing, instrumental music, and from witnessing unsuitable shows.

"He abstains from wearing garlands and from beautifying himself with scents and cosmetics.

"He abstains from high and luxurious beds and seats.

"He abstains from accepting gold and silver.

"He abstains from accepting uncooked grain... raw meat... women and girls... male and female slaves... goats and sheep... fowl and pigs... elephants, cattle, steeds, and mares... fields and property.

"He abstains from accepting fields and lands.

"He abstains from running messages... from buying and selling... from dealing with false scales, false metals, and false measures... from bribery, deception, and fraud.

"He abstains from mutilating, executing, imprisoning, highway robbery, plunder, and violence.

"Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is a bhikkhu is content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along.

"On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense faculties, he experiences within himself an unblemished happiness.

"In going forward and returning, a bhikkhu acts with clear comprehension. In looking ahead and looking aside, he acts with clear comprehension. In bending and stretching his limbs, he acts with clear comprehension. In wearing his robes and cloak and using his almsbowl, he acts with clear comprehension. In eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting, he acts with clear comprehension. In defecating and urinating, he acts with clear comprehension. In walking, standing, sitting, lying down, waking up, speaking, and remaining silent, he acts with clear comprehension.

"Endowed with this noble aggregate of moral discipline, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and clear comprehension, and this noble contentment, he resorts to a secluded dwelling - a forest, the foot of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a cremation ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After returning from his alms-round, following his meal, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and sets up mindfulness before him.

"Abandoning covetousness with regard to the world, he dwells with an awareness devoid of covetousness. He cleanses his mind of covetousness. Abandoning ill will and anger, he dwells with an awareness devoid of ill will, sympathetic with the welfare of all living beings. He cleanses his mind of ill will and anger. Abandoning sloth and drowsiness, he dwells with an awareness devoid of sloth and drowsiness, mindful, alert, percipient of light. He cleanses his mind of sloth and drowsiness. Abandoning restlessness and worry, he dwells undisturbed, his mind inwardly stilled. He cleanses his mind of restlessness and worry. Abandoning doubt, he dwells having crossed over doubt, with no perplexity with regard to skillful mental qualities. He cleanses his mind of doubt.

"Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and remains in the first Jhana which is filled with rapture and happiness born of seclusion and is accompanied by applied and sustained thinking.

"With the stilling of applied and sustained thinking, by gaining inner tranquility and unification of mind, he enters and remains in the second Jhana which is free from applied and sustained thinking and is filled with rapture and happiness born of concentration.

"With the fading away of rapture, remaining imperturbable, mindful, and clearly aware, he enters the third Jhana and experiences within himself the joy of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Happy is he who dwells with equanimity and mindfulness.'

"With the abandoning of pleasure and pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of joy and sorrow -- he enters and remains in the fourth Jhana which is beyond pleasure and pain; and purified by equanimity and mindfulness.

"On seeing a form with the eye he does not become greedy for pleasant forms, or averse to disagreeable forms. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasurable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no being; no being, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

"On hearing a sound with the ear, smelling a smell with the nose, tasting a taste with the tongue, feeling a touch with the body, thinking a thought with the mind, he does not become greedy for pleasant experiences, or averse to disagreeable ones. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasurable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no being; no being, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

"Bhikkhus, remember this deliverance through the destruction of craving as taught in brief by me. But the bhikkhu Sati, the son of a fisherman, is caught in a net of much craving."

The Blessed One said this and those bhikkhus delighted in the words of the Blessed One.

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:17 pm

from the study guide
38 Mahātanhāsankhaya Sutta The Greater Discourse on the Destruction
of Craving v
SUMMARY
This is an important discourse on dependent origination and the destruction of
craving. After reprimanding the bhikkhu Sāti about the view he was
proclaiming—that the same consciousness runs through the round of rebirths—
the Buddha explains from every angle the correct way to view dependent
origination, showing how all phenomena of existence arise and cease through
conditions.
NOT ES
[7] QUOTE: “…I have stated consciousness to be dependently arisen, since
without a condition there is no origination of consciousness.”
[8] Note 404: There is no transmigration of consciousness across the sense
doors. When one type of consciousness arises, it ceases when its supporting
conditions end (e.g., eyes and forms, ears and sounds, etc.).
[11] QUOTES: “This has come to be… Its origination occurs with that as
nutriment… With the cessation of that nutriment, what has come to be is subject
to cessation.” [19] “When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this,
that arises.” [22] “When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the
cessation of this, that ceases.”
[23] The understanding of dependent arising puts an end to the uncertainty of
views about the past, “Was I in the past? Was I not in the past?” or about the
future, “Will I be in the future? What shall I be in the future?” and to perplexity
about the present, “Am I? Am I not? What am I?” (Refer to MN2, as these are the
things listed there as unfit for attention.)
[24] One should speak about things only from personal knowledge, “…of what
you have known, seen, and understood for yourselves.”
[40] Here the Buddha points out how mindfulness of feeling can break the
chain of suffering: If one does not delight in, welcome or remain holding to the
feeling, delight in feelings ceases. With the cessation of delight comes cessation
of clinging; cessation of being; cessation of birth, aging and death, sorrow, pain,
grief…this whole mass of suffering.
Pressing Out Pure Ho ney 50
The chain is broken between feeling and craving (contact—feeling//craving—
clinging—being, karmic action). Note 414: Feeling arises due to past cravings,
but if one does not delight in the feeling, craving will not have the opportunity to
arise and set off reactions of like and dislike that provide further fuel for the
round.
PRACT ICE
Notice how you can experience pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feeling without
delighting in or holding to the feeling itself. Know the energetic response of
“holding” to the feeling. Then notice what happens to the craving.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby Guy » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:39 am

Hello jcsuperstar,

"Bhikkhus, it is said, clinging arises from craving. Does clinging arise from craving or not, or how does it happen here?" "Venerable sir, craving arises from clinging. We understand it thus: Craving arises from clinging."


Is this a mistake in the translation here? It should be "Clinging arises from craving", right? Or not?

With Metta,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:16 am

well here's the sutta from here http://www.vipassana.info/037-culatanhasankhaya-sutta-e1.htm
maybe this translation is better? this one doesnt seem to be out there on the net too much

Mahaatanhaasankhayasutta.m-
(38) The Major Discourse on the Destruction of Craving

I heard thus.

At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anaathapindika in Jeta’s grove in Saavatthi. At that time to a bhikkhu named Saati the son of a fisherman this view had arisen: As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Many bhikkhus, heard that this evil view had arisen to a bhikkhu, named Saati the son of a fisherman: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’. Then those bhikkhus approached, bhikkhu Saati the son of a fisherman and asked: Friend, Saati, is it true, that such an evil view has arisen to you: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’Yes, friends, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Then those bhikkhus, desirous of dissuading the bhikkhu Saati from that evil view, cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied with him: Saati, do not say that, do not blame the Blessed One. It is not good to blame the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say this. The Blessed One has said in various ways, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. Even when those bhikkhus, cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied together with him, he held on to his evil view tenaciously and would not give it up and said. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’

As those bhikkhus could not dissuade the bhikkhu Saati from that evil view, they approached the Blessed One, worshipped, and sat on a side. They said to the Blessed One: Venerable sir, to a bhikkhu named Saati the son of a fisherman this view has arisen: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’ Then we approached the bhikkhu Saati and asked him. Friend, Saati, is it true, that such an evil view has arisen to you: ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’.Venerable sir, bhikkhu Saati said thus to us. Yes, friends, ‘as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else’. Then, we bhikkhus, desirous of dissuading the bhikkhu Saati from that evil view, cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied with him: Saati, do not say that. Do not blame the Blessed One. It is not good to blame the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say this. The Blessed One has said in various ways, that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. Even when we cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied together with him, he held on to his evil view tenaciously and would not give it up. As we could not dissuade the bhikkhu Saati from that evil view, we approached the Blessed One, to inform about this.

Then the Blessed One addressed a certain bhikkhu: Come! Bhikkhu, address the bhikkhu Saati in my words, tell that the Teacher wants him That bhikkhu agreed and approached the bhikkhu Saati and said the Blessed One wants you. Bhikkhu Saati said yes friend and approached the Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side.Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhu Saati: Saati, is it true, that such an evil view has arisen to you. ‘As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness tansmigrates through existences, not anything else’.. Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Saati, how is that conscciousness? Venerable sir, this uttering and feeling one, that reaps the results of actions good and evil done here and there. Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven’t I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit and that will be for your undoing and unpleasantness for a long time.

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, Bhikkhus, what do you think, shouldn’t this bhikkhu Saati, son of a fisherman be chastised from this dispensation of the Teaching. What is good, venerable sir, why shouldn’t we? When this was said, the bhikkhu Saati became silent, confused, with drooping body and face turned down, sat down unable to reply. Then the Blessed One knowing that bhikkhu Saati son of a fisherman has become silent, confused, was unable to reply. Said thus to him. Foolish man you will be pointed out with your evil view. Now I am going to question the bhikkhus on this. Then the Blessed One, addressed the bhikkhus: Bhikkhus, do you too know this Teaching, wrongly grasped by the bhikkhu Saati the son of a fisherman. By that he blames me. Destroys himself, and accumulates much unpleasantness. No, venerable sir. In various ways we are told, that consciousness arises dependently.Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. Bhikkhus, it is good, you know the Teaching preached by me. In various ways I have preached that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, this bhikkhu Saati son of a fisherman, grasping this wrong view blames me and destroys himself, and accumulates much demerit. It will be for his undoing and unpleasaantness for a long time.

Bhikkhus, founded on whatever, consciousness arises, it is reckoned on that. On account of eye and forms arises consciousness, it’s reckoned eye consciousness. On account of ear and sounds arises consciousness, it’s reckoned ear consciousness. On account of nose and smells arises consciousness, it’s reckoned nose consciousness. On account of tongue and tastes arises consciousness, it’s reckoned tongue consciousness.On account of body and touches arises consciousness, it’s reckoned body consciousness. On account of mind and ideas arises consciousness, it’s reckoned mind consciousness. Bhikkhus, just as based on whatever fire burns, it is reckoned by that. Fire ablaze with sticks is stick fire. Ablaze with twigs is twig fire. Ablaze with grass is grass fire. Ablaze with cowdung is cowdung fire. Ablaze with grain thrash is grain thrash fire. Ablaze with dirt is dirt fire. In the same manner consciousness on account is eye and forms is eye consciousness. Consciousness on account of ear and sounds is ear consciousness. Consciousness on account of nose and smells is nose conscioussness. Consciousness on account of tongue and tastes is taste consciousness. Consciousness on account of body and touches is body consciousness. Consciousness on account of mind and ideas is mind consciousness.

Bhikkhus, do you see, that it has arisen (*?(1a) Yes, venerable sir. Do you see, that it arises supported? Yes, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, Do you see, that if the support ceases, the arising too ceases? Yes, venerable sir.

Bhikkhus, when not sure whether it has arisen do doubts arise? Yes, venerable sir.When not sure, whether it is supported, do doubts arise.?Yes, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, when not sure with the support ceasing the arisen too would cease, do doubts arise.? Yes, venerable sir.

Bhikkhus, do doubts of one fade, when he sees with right wisdom, that it has arisen? Yes, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, do doubts of one fade, when he sees with right wisdom, that they arise supported? Yes, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, do doubts of one fade, when he sees with right wisdom that with the cessation of supports the arisen too would cease? Yes, venerable sir

Bhikkhus, this has arisen, are you with dispelled doubts about that? Yes, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, this has arisen supported, are you with dispelled doubts about that? Yes, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, when the support ceases the arising too ceases, are you with dispelled doubts about that? Yes, venerable sir.

Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, as it really is, with right wisdom, this is arising?.Yes,venerable sir. Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that this arises supported?.Yes, venerable sir.Bhikkhus, do you clearly see, with right wisdom, that when the support ceases the arising too ceases? Yes, venerable sir.

Bhikkkhus, this view, so clean and pure, if you covet, fondle, treasure and take pride in it do you know this Teaching comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up and not for the purpose of holding? .No, venerable sir.Bhikkhus, this view of yours so clean and pure, do not covet, fondle, treasure and take pride in it. Do you know this Teaching comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up and not for the purpose of holding? Yes, venerable sir.

Bhikkhus, these four are the supports, for the arisen for the upkeep of beings and as help for those seeking birth. What four. Material food, coarse or fine, the second is contact, mental cogitation is third and consciousness is fourth.

Bhikkhus,from what do these four supports originate, rise, take birth and develop?

These four supports originate, rise, take birth and develop from craving.

Bhikkhus, from what does craving originate, rise, take birth and develop?

Craving originates, rises, takes birth and develops from feelings..

Bhikkhus, from what do feelings originate, rise, take birth and develop?

Feelings originate, rise, take birth and develop from contact.

Bhikkhus, from what does contact originate, rise, take birth and develop?.

Contact originates, rises, takes birth and develops from the six mental faculties.

Bhikkhus, from what do the six mental faculties originate, rise, take birth and develop?

The six mental faculties originate, rise, take birth and develop from name and matter.

Bhikkhus, from what do name and matter originate, rise, take birth and develop?

Name and matter originate, rise, take birth and develop from consciousness.

Bhikkhus, from what does consciousness originate, rise, take birth and develop?.

Consciousness originates rises, takes birth and develops from determinations.

Bhikkhus, from what do determinations originate, rise, take birth and develop?.

Determinations originate, rise, take birth and develop from ignorance

Thus bhikkhus, from ignorance determinations, from determinations consciousness, from consciousness name and matter, from name and matter the six mental spheres, from the six mental spheres, contact, from contact feelings, from feelings craving , from craving being, from being birth, from birth decay, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress arise. Thus the arising of this whole mass of unpleasantness.

Bhikkhus, it is said, decay and death arise from birth. Do decay and death arise from birth or not, or how does it happen here? Venerable sir, decay and death, arise from birth. It happens thus to us. Decay and death arise from birth.

Bhikkhus, it is said, birth arises from being (*1). Does birth arise from being or not or how does it happen here? Venerable sir, birth arises from being, it happens thus to us. Birth arises from being.

Bhikkhus, it is said, being arises from holding (*2). Does being arise from holding or not or how does it happen here? Venerable sir, being rises from holding. It happens thus to us. Being arises from holding. .

Bhikkhus, it is said, holding arises from craving (*3). Does holding arise from craving or not or how does it happen here? Venerable sir, craving arises from holding. It happens thus to us. Craving arises from holding.

Bhikkhus, it is said, craving arises from feelings (*4). Does craving arise from feelings or not or how does it happen here? Venerable sir, craving arises from feelings. It happens thus to us. Craving arises from feelings

Bhikkhus, it is said, feelings arise from contact (*5). Do feelings arise from contact or not or how does it happen here? Venerable sir, feelings arise from contact It happens thus to us. Feelings arise from contact.

Bhikkhus, it is said, contact arises from the six mental spheres (*6)..Does contact arise from the six mental spheres or not or how does it happen here?. Venerable sir, contact arises from the six mental spheres. It happens thus to us. Contact arises from the six mental spheres.

Bhikkhus, it is said, the six mental spheres arise from name and matter (*7). Do the six mental spheres arise from name and matter, or not or how does it happen here?. Venerable sir, the six mental spheres, arise from name and matter. It happens thus to us. The six mental spheres arise from name and matter.

Bhikkhus, it is said, name and matter arise from consciousness (*8). Do name and matter arise from consciousness, or not or how does it happen here?.Venerable sir, name and matter arise from consciousness. It happens thus to us. Name and matter. arise from consciousness.

Bhikkhus, it is said, consciousness arise from determinations (*9) . Does consciousness arise from determinations, or not or how does it happen here? Venerable sir, consciousness arises from determinations. It happens thus to us. Consciousness arises from determinations.

Bhikkhus, it is said, determinations arise from ignorance (*10) Do determinations arise from ignorance or not or how does it happen here?.Venerable sir, determinations arise from ignorance. It happens thus to us. Determinations arise from ignorance.

Good! Bhikkhus, you say this and I too say it. Thus when this is present, this happens.When this arises, this arise Such as, because of ignorance arise determinations. Because of determinations arise consciousness. Because of consciousness arise name and matter. Because of name and matter arise the six mental spheres. Because of the six mental spheres arise contact. Because of contact arise feelings. Beccause of feelings arise craving. Because of craving arise holding. Because of holding arise being. Because of being arise birth. Because of birth arise decay, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. Thus arise the complete mass of unpleasantaness. With the complete cessation of ignorance, cease determinations .With the complete cessation of determinations, cease consciousness. With the cessation of consciousness, ceases name and matter. With the cessation of name and matter, ceases the six mental spheres. With the cessation of the six mental spheres, ceases contact. With the cessation of contact, ceases feelings With the cessation of feelings, cease craving. With the cessation of craving ceases holding. With the cessation of holding, ceases being. With the cessation of being, ceases birth. With the cessation of birth cease decay, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress. Thus is the complete cessation of unpleasantness. . . .

When birth ceases decay and death cease it is said.. Bhikkhus, do decay and death cease when birth ceases, or does it not or how does it happen. Venerable sir, when birth ceases decay and death cease. Thus it happens to us, when birth ceases decay and death cease.

When being ceases birth ceases it is said. .Bhikkhus, does birth cease when being ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?. Venerable sir, when being ceases birth ceases. Thus it happens to us. When being ceases birth ceases.

When holding ceases being ceases it is said. Bhikkhus, does holding cease when being ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen.? Venerable sir, when holding ceases being cease. Thus it happens to us. When holding ceases being cease.

When craving ceases holding ceases it is said. Bhikkhus, does craving cease when holding ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?. Venerable sir, when craving ceases holding cease. Thus it happens to us. When craving ceases holding ceases.

When feeling ceases craving ceases it is said, bhikkhus, does craving cease when feeling ceases, or does it not, or how does it happen?. Venerable sir, when feeling ceases craving ceases. Thus it happens to us. When feeling ceases craving ceases.

When contact ceases feeling ceases it is said, bhikkhus, does feeling cease when contact ceases or does it not, or how does it happen?. Venerable sir, when contact ceases feeling ceases. Thus it happens to us. When contact ceases feeling ceases.

When the six mental spheres cease contact ceases it is said. Bhikkhus, do the six mental spheres cease when contact ceases or does it not, or how does it happen?. Venerable sir, when the six mental spheres cease contact ceases. Thus it happens to us. When the six mental spheres cease contact ceases.

When name and matter cease the six mental spheres cease it is said. Bhikkhus, do the six mental spheres cease when name and matter cease or does it not, or how do they happen?.Venerable sir, when name and matter cease the six mental spheres cease. Thus it happens to us. When name and matter cease the six mental spheres cease.

When consciousness ceases name and matter cease it is said. Bhikkhus, do name and matter cease when consciousness ceases or do they not, or how does it happen?. Venerable sir, when consciousness ceases name and matter cease. Thus it happens to us. When consciousness ceases name and matter cease.

When determinations cease consciousness ceases it is said.Bhikkhus does consciousness cease when determinations cease or does it not, or how does it happen?.

Venerable sir, when determinations cease consciousness ceases. Thus it happens to us.

When determinations cease consciousness ceases

When ignorance cease determinations cease it is said. Bhikkhus, do determinations cease when ignorance ceases or does it not, or how does it happen. Venerable sir, when ignorance ceases determinations cease. Thus it happens to us, when ignorance ceases determinations cease.

Good O! bhikkhus, you say this, and I too say it. When this is not present, this is not. When this ceases this cease. Such as with the cessation of ignorance cease determinations. With the cessation of determinations cease consciousness. With the cessation of consciousness cease name and matter. With the cessation of name and matter cease the six mental spheres. With the cessation of the six mental spheres cease contact. With the cessation of contact cease feelings. With the cessation of feelings cease craving. With the cessation of craving cease holding. With the cessation of holding cease being. With the cessation of being cease birth. With the cessation of birth cease decay, death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress..Thus cease the complete mass of unpleasantness.

Yet bhikkhus, you who know thus and see thus, would your mind run to the past? Was I in the past or was I not in the past?. What was I in the past? How was I in the past?. Being who was I in the past? No, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, would your mind who knows and see thus, run to the future? Will I be in the future, or will I not be in the future?. What will I be in the future? How will I be in the future?. Who will I be in the future?.No, venerable sir.Bhikkhus, you who know, and see thus, would you have doubts of the present? Am I, or am I not? What am I? How am I?. This being from where did it come? Where will it go? No, venerable sir..

Yet bhikkhus, you who know and see thus would you say, we have reverence for the Teacher. We say it out of reverence to the Teacher?. No, venerable sir. Yet bhikkhus, you who know and see thus would you say. Our recluse said it, these are the recluse’s words. We do not say that? No, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, you who know and see thus would you seek another teacher? No, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, you who know and see thus, would you see essence in religious rites, ceremonies and festivals of other recluses and brahmins? No, venerable sir. Bhikkhus, isn’t it that you by youself knowing, seeing and experiencing say it? Yes, venerable sir. Good! O! bhikkhus, I have led you up in this Teaching. It is here and now. Time does not matter. It is open to inspection, leads to the beyond and is to be experienced by the wise, by themselves. Bhikkhus, if it was said the Teaching is here and now. Time does not matter, is open to inspection, leads to the beyond and is to be realised by the wise by themselves, it was said on account of this.

Bhikkhus, with the coming together of three things a descent to the womb comes about: Here the mother and father come together. It is not the season of the mother. The one to be born does not attend Then there is no descent to the womb. Here, mother and father come together. It is the season of the mother. The one to be born does not attend. Then there is no descent to the womb. Here mother and father come together. It is the season of the mother and the one to be born attends. Then there is a descent to the womb. That mother protects the womb for nine or ten months with great anxiety and trouble. After nine or ten months that mother gives birth with great anxiety and trouble. She supports the born with her own blood. In the noble ones’ dispensation mother’s milk is called blood. Bhikkhus, that boy grows and his faculties mature and he plays games that boys play. Such as mock games as taking a bowl, turning somersaults, making toy wind mills with palm leaves, making small carts and bows. Bhikkhus, that boy, grows and his faculties develop and is provided with the five strands of sense pleasures, and he lives enticed by pleasing agreeable forms cognisable by eye consciousness, agreeable sounds cognisable by ear consciousness, agreeable smells cognisable by nose consciousness, agreeable tastes cognisable by tongue consciousness and agreeable touches cognisable by body consciousness.

He seeing a form with the eye becomes greedy for a pleasant form, or averse to a disagreeable form. Abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. Not knowing the release of mind nor the release through wisdom as it really is, where thoughts of demerit cease completely (*11). He falls to the path of agreeing and disagreeing and feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those feelings he appropriates them. To him delighted, pleased and appropriating those feelings arises interest. That interest for feelings is the holding (* 12) To him holding, there is being, from being arises birth, from birth decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress, thus arises the complete mass of unpleasantness. Hearing a sound with the ear, cognising a smell with the nose, cognising a taste with the tongue, cognising a touch with the body, cognising an idea with the mind, becomes greedy for a pleasant idea. Becomes averse to a disagreeable idea. Abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. Not knowing the release of mind nor the release through wisdom as it really is. Not knowing how thoughts of demerit cease completely. He falls to the path of agreeing and disagreeing and feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those feelings, appropriates them. To him delighted, pleased and appropriating those feelings arise interest. That interest for feelings is the holding (*12) To him holding, there is being, from being arises birth, from birth decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress, thus arises the complete mass of unpleasntness.

. Here bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One is born in the world perfect rightfully enlightened. Endowed with knowledge and conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds the incomparable tamer of those to be tamed, teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed. He proclaims to this world of gods and men, together with its Maaras, Brahmaas, the community of recluses, brahmins, gods and men. The Teaching good at the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Full of meaning even in the letters and declaring the complete and pure holy life. A householder, or the son of a householder or one born in some clan, hears the Teaching and gains faith in the Thus Gone One. With that gain of faith reflects. The household life is full of difficulties, is a defiling path. Going forth is like open space. Living in a household it is not easy to lead a holy life complete and pure without being defiled. What if I. shave head and beard, put on yellow clothes and go forth as a homeless. At some suitable time he gives up a little wealth or a large mass of wealth.. Leaves behind a small circle of friends, or a large circle of friends. Shaving head and beard and donning yellow clothes goes forth as a homeless.

Gone forth he becomes a trainer in the life of a bhikkhu, gives up hurting living things, throwing away stick and weapon, ashamed and compassion aroused, abides with compassion for all beings. Abstaining from taking what is not given, desires the given, the self made pure without thieving he abides. .Abstaining from low sexual intercourse leads the holy life .Abstaining from telling lies becomes reliable and trustworthy and abides without a dispute with the world. Gives up slandering, hearing here does not say it elsewhere, to split these. Hearing elsewhere does not say it here to split those. Thus he unites the split, promotes unity, fond of unity talks words to unite. Giving up rough talk, says pleasant words pleasing to the ears. Says words going straight to the heart of the populace at large. Abstains from frivolous talk. Says appropriate words, that are truthful, meaningful, in accordance with the Teaching and Discipline, those words that could be treasured.

Abstains from destroying seed groups and vegetable groups. Partaking one meal a day, abstains from food at night and at untimely hours. Abstains from dance, singing, music, decorations, flowers and scents, ointments and adornments. Abstains from high and stately beds. Abstains from accepting gold and silver, uncooked rice and uncooked flesh,. Abstains from accepting women and girls, slaves, men or women, Abstains from accepting goats, cows, fowl, pigs, elephants, cattle, .horses and mares.

Abstains from accepting fields and wealth. Abstains from doing the work of a messenger and buying and selling. Abstains from unfair ways of weighing and measuring. Abstains from cutting severing, destroying and highway robbery, and wrong ways of obtaining morsel food.

Satisfied, covering the body with robes, feeding the belly with morsel food, goes with all the belongings where ever he goes. Like the birds small and large that go with the weight of their wings. Likewise satisfied covering the body with robes, feeding the belly with morsel food, goes with all the belongings where ever he goes. Endowed with this mass of virtues, he experiences the pleasure of blamelessness internally. Seeing a form with the eye, does not take the sign or the elements .To one abiding with the mental faculty of the eye uncontrolled, may trickle demerit and displeasure by coveting. He abides protecting the mental faculty of the eye..Hearing a sound with the ear, Cognizing a smell with the nose, tasting a taste with the tongue, Cognizing a touch with the body, Cognizing an idea with the mind, does not take the sign or the elements. To one abiding, with the mental faculty of the mind uncontrolled, may trickle demerit and displeasure by coveting. He abides protecting the mind. Endowed with the noble ones’ control of the mental faculties, he experiences the untouched pleasure of the mental faculties Coming forward and returning is aware, looking on and aside is aware. Bending and stretching is aware. Bearing bowl and the three robes is aware. Tasting, drinking, eating and enjoying is aware.Going, standing, sitting, lying, awake, and keeping silence is aware.

Endowed with this mass of virtues, this control of the mental faculties of the noble ones, the mindful awareness of the noble ones abides in a secluded dwelling, a forest, the root of a tree, a mountain grotto or cave, a charnel ground, a jungle forest, an open space, or a heap of straw.. Returning from the alms round after the meal is over, sits in a cross legged position, the body placed straight and mindfulness established in front.

Dispelling covetousness for the world he abides, cleaning the mind of covetousness Dispelling anger he abides cleaning the mind of anger with compassion for all born Dispelling sloth and torpor he abides, mindful and aware of a perception of light, cleaning sloth and torpor from the mind. Dispelling restlessness and worry he abides with a mind internally appeased, cleaning the mind of restlessness and worry. Abides with doubts dispelled of meritorious things that should be done

The bhikkhu dispelling the five hindrances of the mind and wisely making the minor defilements weak, turns out sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit. With thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion attained to abides in the first jhaana.

Again, the bhikkhu overcoming thoughts and thought processes, the mind, internally appeased in one point, with joy and pleasantness born of concentration attained to abides in the second jhaana. Again the bhikkhu with equanimity to joy and detachment abides mindful and aware, with the body experiencing pleasantness too attained to abides in the third jhana.. To this the noble ones say mindfully abiding in pleasantness with equanimity.

Again the bhikkhu dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, with mindfulness purified with equanimity attained to abides in the fourth jhaana.

He seeing a form with the eye does not greed for a pleasant form, nor become averse to a disagreeable form. Abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a limitless mind, knowing the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, where thoughts of demerit cease completely.Dispelling agreeing and disagreeing feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Neither delighted nor pleased with those feelings does not appropriate them. To him neither delighted, nor pleased and not appropriating those feelings the interest for them ceases. When interest ceases the holding ceases. When holding ceases being ceases. When being ceases birth ceases. When birth ceases decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress cease. Thus the complete mass of unpleasantness. ceases. Hearing a sound with the ear, cognising a smell with the nose, cognising a taste with the tongue, cognising a touch with the body, cognising an idea with the mind, does not become greedy for a pleasant idea. Does not become averse to a disagreeable idea. Abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a limitless mind, knowing the release of mind and the release through wisdom as it really is, where thoughts of demerit cease completely.Dispelling agreeing and disagreeing feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Neither delighted nor pleased with those feelings does not appropriate them. Then the interest for those feelings cease. When interest ceases the holding ceases. When holding ceases being ceases. When being ceases birth ceases.When birth ceases decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress, cease. Thus the complete mass of unpleasantness ceases. Bhikkhus, remember this as the destruction of unpleasantness in short. As for the bhikkhu Saati the son of a fisherman is bound in a net of much craving.

The Blessed One said thus and those bhikkhus delighted in the words of the Blessed One...

Notes.

1a. Bhikkhus, do you see that it has arisen? ‘bhuutamidanti bhikkhave passathaati’ The Blessed One alludes it, to consciousness.

1. Birth arises from being,’bhava paccayaa jaati ti’
2. Being arises from holding,’upaadaana paccayaa bhavo’
3. Holding arises from craving, ‘tanhaa paccayaa upaadaana.m’
4. Craving arises from feelings, ‘vedanaa paccayaa tanhaa’.Turning this the other way round we see that the centrifugal point is feeling. It is from a feeling that craving, holding, being and birth come about. With a contact there is a feeling.On account of the feeling there is craving, Craving is the interested following up of the feeling, either with like or dislike.Then there is a mental hold of this situation, on account of which is being, that is being with those feelings, perceptions and thoughts. On account of this there is birth. It’s the birth of a thought.Or even birth too happens in this manner.
5. Feelings arise from contact.’phassa paccayaa vedanaa’ Contact is impingement at one or the other of the doors of mental contact, which causes to arouse feelings.
6.Contact arises from the six mental spheres.’salaayatana paccayaa phasso’ Contact is for someone who has his six spheres of mental contact, and has a self to wake, at any moment.
7.The six mental spheres arise from name and matter.’naama ruupa paccayaa salaayatana.m’ The waking of the self complete with his six doors of mental contact takes place at one or the other of the doors of mental contact. This point of waking is called name and matter. Name are the fivefold reactions of the mind in the form of feeluings, perceptions, attention, contact and mental cogition. Matter is this body of ours together with the doors of mental contact, and the various things that matter at the doors, such as sights, sounds etcetra
8. Name and matter arises from consciousness ‘vi~n~naana paccayaa naama ruupa.m’ There should be a conscious door, eye, ear or anything else, for name and matter to take birth.
9. Consciousness arises from determinations,’sankhaara paccayaa vi~n~naana.m ti’ Determinations are threefold, as bodily,verbal and mental.Bodily determinations are in and out breaths, verbal determinations are thinking and pondering and mental determinations are feelings and perceptions. When these internal and prior activities of breathing, thinking, feeling and perceiving are present, there a consciousness would arise.
10. Determinations arise from ignorance ‘avijjhaa paccayaa sankhaaraati’These activities of breathing, thinking, pondering, feeling and perceiving is on account of ignorance.
11. Abides with mindfulness of the body not established, not knowing the release of mind and the release through wisdom, where thoughts of demerit cease completely.’anupa.t.thita kaaya sati vaa viharati paritta cetaso tanca ceto vimutti.m pa~n~naa vimutti.m yataa bhuuta.m nappajaanaati’ The release of mind is gained when the bhikkhu completely handles the control of his mental faculties.Such a one enjoys the non-touched pleasure of his doors of mental contact.This is also called the release through knowing. The release through wisdom is gained by attaining to the jhaanas, ascending from the first and descending from the top most. Throughout these abidings, the mind ceases to behave in demerit.When the mind abides in jhaaanas and higher abidings, the message should be registered in the mind, that those pure states of mind are impermanent, so unpleasant, and it is foolish to take them as me or mine. This is for the purpose of giving up the self view-‘sakkaayadi.t.thi’
12.The interest for feelings is the holding’yaa vedanaasu nandi tad-upaadaana,m’ This is one of the twelve links of dependent arising. Here the Blessed One points out how we should pierce through from one of these links, so that we could see dependent cessation. It is this interest for feelings that we have to dispel little by little. Reading the discourse several times would be helpful, for realising dependent arising and dependent cessation
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:23 pm

one of the biggest problem for a lot of people being unable to penetrate into non-self is thinking that consciousness is permanent. If they see that even awareness is fractured things would fall into place. Often this is clearest when it is seen how consciousness arises based on a cause and effect mechanism. Hence here the Buddha talks of just that. To see causality of consciousness is quite difficult and because of this I suspect the idea that conscioussness is permanent is prevalent, especially among meditators who cannot get beyond observer/observed paradigm to see the arising of awareness itself.
With Metta

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Re: MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby mindfullmom » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:38 pm

If there is the union of mother and father and it is the season of the mother but the one to be born is not present - then there is no descent to the womb


What does this mean please? :shrug:
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Re: MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:48 am

That's a good question.

The translation by Ven. Nanamoli and Ven. Bodhi uses the term "gandhabba" directly instead of trying to translating it into English as "the one to be born" or something similar:
Here, there is the union of the mother and father, but the mother is not in season, and the gandhabba is not present -- in this case no descent of an embryo takes place.

In the notes, this explanation is offered:
The gandhabba is the being arriving there. It is not someone (i.e., a disembodied spirit) standing nearby watching the future parents having intercourse, but a being driven on by the mechanism of kamma, due to be reborn on that occasion. The exact import of the word gandhabba in relation to the rebirth process is not explained in the Nikayas, and the word in this sense occurs only here and at 93.18. DN 15/ii.63 speaks of consciousness as "descending into the mother's womb," this being a condition for rebirth to take place. Thus we might identify the gandhabba here as the stream of consciousness, conceived more animistically as coming over from the previous existence and bringing along its total accumulation of kammic tendencies and personality traits. The fullest study of the concept of the gandhabba is Wijesekera, "Vedic Gandharva and Pali Gandhabba," in Buddhist and Vedic Studies, pp. 191-202.

You might also want to take a spin through this thread. But I wouldn't get too hung up on this. The key issue is dukkha in this present moment.
:anjali:
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby mindfullmom » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:44 am

Thanks Jechbi - for me understanding that one line meant the difference between having the misunderstanding of Sati and having right understanding. This part of the tread you referred me to made all the difference:

Re: The mechanism of gandhabba
by Dhammanando » Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:36 am

Hi Stuka,


stuka wrote:
"The Buddha, Maha Tanhasankaya Sutta, MN 38,"]

As there is nothing about the gandhabba in this sutta passage it would be helpful if you could add some words of your own to clarify its relevance to the thread.

In the meantime, my best guess is that you wish to reiterate your view that the classical Theravada teaching on rebirth falls into the same error as Sāti. But no amount of reiterating it will make it so. I did in fact address the claim a few days ago, but to refresh your memory:

Sāti’s view:


tadevidaṃ viññāṇaṃ sandhāvati saṃsarati anaññaṃ

“It is this very same consciousness that continues and wanders on, not another.”

Classical Theravāda:


•This present consciousness is dependently arisen, and so is the one after it, and so is the one after that...etc. etc.
•There is no single consciousness that persists through time, but rather, each consciousness is discreet and to be reckoned in accordance with the sense-base and sense-object upon which it depends (“just as fire is reckoned by the particular condition dependent on which it burns – when fire bums dependent on logs, it is reckoned as a log fire...etc.”).
•There is, however, a continuity of consciousnesses (in the present life at least, this is evident, for how else could any sense of personal identity be sustained?).
•For beings who die with ignorance and craving still intact, the continuity of consciousnesses will outlast the present body.

Sāti’s view:

katamaṃ taṃ, sāti, viññāṇan ti?

yvāyaṃ, bhante, vado vedeyyo tatra tatra kalyāṇapāpakānaṃ kammānaṃ vipākaṃ paṭisaṃvedetī ti.

“What is this consciousness, Sāti?”

“It is this, bhante, that speaks, that feels, that experiences now here, now there, the ripening of kammas that are virtuous or vicious.”

So, in Sāti's view not only does a single consciousness persist, but while persisting it also performs diverse functions. It speaks and it feels; it experiences both pleasures (the ripening of virtuous kammas) and pains (the ripening of vicious ones).

Classical Theravāda:

•An arisen eye-consciousness performs the function of seeing, an arisen ear-consciousness the function of hearing etc. No consciousness performs more than one function, and (as mentioned already) each consciousness is discreet and different from those that came before it and those which come after.
•No single consciousness can experience both pleasure and pain.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu


While the question of how continuity of consciousness travels has always interested me, I have purposely stayed away from it because I thought it would distract me from the real work at hand, as you said, suffering in the moment.

And since the last sutta study topic is locked, thank you for you help there as well, you seem to know exactly where my level of understanding is and then refer me to exactly the right topics to read! :thumbsup: :bow:
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Re: MN 38. Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta

Postby Jechbi » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:54 pm

:embarassed:
I've been fortunate to benefit from good friends here.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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