SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by mikenz66 »

SN 14.11 PTS: S ii 150 CDB i 634 Sattadhatu Sutta: Seven Properties
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


An alternative way of looking at the stages of concentration practice

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

At Savatthi. "Monks, there are these seven properties. Which seven? The property of light, the property of beauty,[1] the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness, the property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, the property of the cessation of feeling & perception. These are the seven properties."

When this was said, a certain monk addressed the Blessed One: "Lord, with regard to the property of light... the property of the cessation of feeling & perception: In dependence on what are these properties discerned?"

"Monk, the property of light is discerned in dependence on darkness. The property of beauty is discerned in dependence on the unattractive. The property of the dimension of the infinitude of space is discerned in dependence on form. The property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness is discerned in dependence on the dimension of the infinitude of space. The property of the dimension of nothingness is discerned in dependence on the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is discerned in dependence on the dimension of nothingness. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is discerned in dependence on cessation."

"But, lord, with regard to the property of light... the property of the cessation of feeling & perception: How is the attainment of these properties to be reached?"

"Monk, the property of light, the property of beauty, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space, the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the property of the dimension of nothingness: These properties are to be reached as perception attainments.[2] The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is to be reached as a remnant-of-fabrications attainment. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is to be reached as a cessation attainment."[3]

Notes

1. The property of beauty refers to a meditative attainment. Here it is described as a second stage in concentration practice that does not map clearly onto the four jhanas, although it may be roughly equivalent to the fourth jhana. In DN 15 and MN 137 it is described as a third stage in concentration practice. In the words of DN 15: “Possessed of form, one sees forms. This is the first emancipation. Not percipient of form internally, one sees forms externally. This is the second emancipation. One is intent only on the beautiful. This is the third emancipation.”

2. This means that these levels of concentration depend on holding a particular perception (mental label) in mind. On this point, see MN 121.

3. AN 9.36 comments on the stages beginning with the dimension of nothingness as follows: “Thus, as far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them.”
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by mikenz66 »

Notes from Bhikkhu Bodhi.

At Sāvatthı̄. “Bhikkhus, there are these seven elements. What seven? The light element, the beauty element, the base of the infinity of space element, the base of the infinity of consciousness element, the base of nothingness element, the base of neither-perception-nor-nonperception element, the cessation of perception and feeling element. These are the seven elements.”
  • Spk: The light element (ābhādhātu) is a name for the jhāna together with its object, that is, light (āloka) and the jhāna arisen after doing the preparatory work on the light-kasiṇa. The beauty element (subhadhātu) is just the jhāna together with its object, namely, the jhāna arisen on the basis of a beautiful kasiṇa. The others are self-explanatory.
“Bhikkhu, the light element is discerned in dependence on darkness. The beauty element is discerned in dependence on foulness. The base of the infinity of space element is discerned in dependence on form. The base of the infinity of consciousness element is discerned in dependence on the base of the infinity of space. The base of nothingness element is discerned in dependence on the base of the infinity of consciousness. The base of neither-perception-nor-nonperception element is discerned in dependence on the base of nothingness. The cessation of perception and feeling element is discerned in dependence on cessation.”
  • Spk: The light element is discerned in dependence on darkness: for darkness is delimited by (contrasted with) light, and light by darkness. Similarly, foulness is delimited by (contrasted with) beauty, and beauty by foulness. In dependence on form: in dependence on a form-sphere meditative attainment. For when one has a form-sphere attainment one can overcome form or attain the base of the infinity of space. In dependence on cessation (nirodhaṃ paṭicca): in dependence on the reflectively induced nonoccurrence (paṭisaṅkhā-appavatti) of the four (mental) aggregates. For the attainment of cessation is discerned in dependence on the cessation of the aggregates, not on their occurrence. And here it is just the cessation of the four aggregates that should be understood as “the attainment of cessation.”
“The light element, the beauty element, the base of the infinity of space element, the base of the infinity of consciousness element, and the base of nothingness element: these elements are to be attained as attainments with perception. The base of neither-perception-nor-nonperception element: this element is to be attained as an attainment with a residue of formations. The cessation of perception and feeling element: this element is to be attained as an attainment of cessation.”
  • Spk: An attainment with a residue of formations (saṅkhārā-vasesasamāpatti ): because of a residue of subtle formations. According to Vism 337-38 (Ppn 10:47-54), in this attainment perception and the other mental factors are present merely in a subtle residual mode and thus cannot perform their decisive functions; hence the ambivalence in the name.
Here is the Visuddhimagga passage, X.47-54
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf
47. As he gives attention to it as “peaceful” in the way already described, [337]
he reaches the ultra-subtle absorbed perception in virtue of which he is called
“neither percipient nor non-percipient,” and it is said of him that “He develops
the attainment with residual formations.”

The attainment with residual formations is the fourth immaterial attainment
whose formations have reached a state of extreme subtlety.

48. Now, in order to show the meaning of the kind of perception that has been
reached, on account of which [this jhána] is called the “base consisting of neither
perception nor non-perception,” it is said: “‘Base consisting of neither perception
nor non-perception’: states of consciousness or its concomitants in one who has
attained the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception or in one
who has been reborn there or in one who is abiding in bliss there in this present
life” (Vibh 263). Of these, what is intended here is the states of consciousness
and its concomitants in one who has attained.

49. The word meaning here is this: that jhána with its associated states neither
has perception nor has no perception because of the absence of gross perception
and the presence of subtle perception, thus it is “neither perception nor nonperception”
(n’ eva-saññá-násaññaí). It is “neither perception nor non-perception”
and it is a “base” (áyatana) because it is included in the mind-base (manáyatana)
and the mental-object base (dhammáyatana), thus it is the “base consisting of
neither perception nor non-perception” (nevasaññánásaññáyatana).

50. Or alternatively: the perception here is neither perception, since it is
incapable of performing the decisive function of perception, nor yet nonperception,
since it is present in a subtle state as a residual formation, thus it is
“neither perception nor non-perception.” It is “neither perception nor nonperception”
and it is a “base” in the sense of a foundation for the other states,
thus it is the “base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception.”
And here it is not only perception that is like this, but feeling as well is
neither-feeling-nor-non-feeling, consciousness is neither-consciousness-nornon-consciousness,
and contact is neither-contact-nor-non-contact, and the same
description applies to the rest of the associated states; but it should be understood
that this presentation is given in terms of perception.

51. And the meaning should be illustrated by the similes beginning with the
smearing of oil on the bowl. A novice smeared a bowl with oil, it seems, and laid
it aside. When it was time to drink gruel, an elder told him to bring the bowl. He
said, “Venerable sir, there is oil in the bowl.” But then when he was told, “Bring
the oil, novice, I shall fill the oil tube,” he replied, “There is no oil, venerable sir.”
Herein, just as “There is oil” is in the sense of incompatibility with the gruel
because it has been poured into [the bowl] and just as “There is no oil” is in the
sense of filling the oil tube, etc., so too this perception is “neither perception” since

it is incapable of performing the decisive function of perception and it is “nor nonperception”
because it is present in a subtle form as a residual formation. [338]
52. But in this context what is perception’s function? It is the perceiving of the
object, and it is the production of dispassion if [that attainment and its object
are] made the objective field of insight. But it is not able to make the function of
perceiving decisive, as the heat element in tepid11 water is not able to make the
function of burning decisive; and it is not able to produce dispassion by treatment
of its objective field with insight in the way that perception is in the case of the
other attainments.

53. There is in fact no bhikkhu capable of reaching dispassion by comprehension
of aggregates connected with the base consisting of neither perception nor nonperception
unless he has already done his interpreting with other aggregates (see
XX.2f. and XXI.23). And furthermore, when the venerable Sáriputta, or someone very
wise and naturally gifted with insight as he was, is able to do so, even he has to do
it by means of comprehension of groups (XX.2) in this way, “So it seems, these states,
not having been, come to be; having come to be, they vanish” (M III 28), and not by
means of [actual direct] insight into states one by one as they arise. Such is the
subtlety that this attainment reaches.

54. And this meaning should be illustrated by the simile of the water on the
road, as it was by the simile of the oil-smearing on the bowl. A novice was
walking in front of an elder, it seems, who had set out on a journey. He saw a
little water and said, “There is water, venerable sir, remove your sandals.” Then
the elder said, “If there is water, bring me the bathing cloth and let us bathe,” but
the novice said, “There is none, venerable sir.” Herein, just as “There is water” is
in the sense of mere wetting of the sandals, and “There is none” is in the sense
of bathing, so too, this perception is “neither perception” since it is incapable of
performing the decisive function of perception, and it is “nor non-perception”
because it is present in a subtle form as a residual formation
User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by L.N. »

Is there a proper or helpful mundane gloss for this type of sutta, which might be both meaningful and accessible? In dependence on darkness, light. In dependance on ugliness, beauty. In dependence on the finite, the infinite. In dependence on the infinite, consciousness of the infinite. In dependence on consciousness of the infinite, nothing. In dependence on nothing, subtle perception.

In dependence on stopping, no perception, no feeling.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi L.N.
L.N. wrote:Is there a proper or helpful mundane gloss for this type of sutta, which might be both meaningful and accessible?

In dependence on darkness, light. ...
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. The sutta states:
SN 14.11 wrote: ... the light element is discerned in dependence on darkness. ...
And the commentary states, as I quoted from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes above:
Commentary wrote: The light element is discerned in dependence on darkness: for darkness is delimited by (contrasted with) light, and light by darkness. ...
That seems reasonably logical, but perhaps there's something deeper that you are getting at.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by L.N. »

mikenz66 wrote:I'm not sure what you are getting at here. ... perhaps there's something deeper that you are getting at.
The opposite. I'm getting at something less deep. The sutta is logical and wonderful. As you characterize it, it is an alternative way of looking at the stages of concentration practice. I wonder if it is proper and helpful to also think of it as something less than that. Does it also have some broader, more mundane, and for some perhaps more accessible, application? Maybe not.

Study Group is my favourite place on this forum. I would like to see more discussion here. My comment is my effort to spur discussion on this deep sutta. Metta.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by Zom »

Very interesting sutta, by the way. However, I guess the Commy is wrong here and "light element" is not a kasina (totality) at all. First, "light kasina" came into Commy from "consiousness kasina", where "consiousness kasina" is explained somewhere in the suttas as the 2nd arupa-sphere (yes, this is a sphere of boundless (infinite) consiousness, just above the sphere of infinite space (which is, of course, a space kasina [totality]). So, originally, in the suttas "space" and "light" kasinas were 1st and 2nd arupalokas. In Commy they converted into something else entirely.

Interesting thing to note is that all these 7 elements are connected with jhanas, where "light" and "beauty" elements are connected with, obviously, first 4 jhanas. In some other suttas which speak about lower jhanas we can see such terms as "light" and "beautiful forms" (like MN 77, MN 128). Somewhere else "forms" (probably, beautiful ones) are explained as "dietes" (AN 8.64), however, nothing is said about "ugly forms".
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by Sylvester »

I wonder how these 7 "properties" map onto another scheme that is more common -
The property of light (ābhā, related to ābha, a generic classification for lustrous devas, including those of the 2nd jhana),
the property of beauty (subha),
the property of the dimension of the infinitude of space,
the property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness,
the property of the dimension of nothingness,
the property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception,
the property of the cessation of feeling & perception.

7 properties
Ānanda, there are these eight emancipations. What are the eight?

“One possessing material form sees material forms. This is the first emancipation.

“One not perceiving material forms internally sees material forms externally. This is the second emancipation.

“One is released (adhimutta = resolved upon. Is translation mixed up?) upon the idea of the beautiful (subha). This is the third emancipation.

“Through the complete surmounting of perceptions of material form, the passing away of perceptions of impingement, and non-attention to perceptions of diversity, (contemplating) ‘Space is infinite,’ one enters and dwells in the base of the infinity of space. This is the fourth emancipation.

“Having completely surmounted the base of the infinity of space, (contemplating) ‘Consciousness is infinite,’ one enters and dwells in the base of the infinity of consciousness. This is the fifth emancipation.

“Having completely surmounted the base of the infinity of consciousness, (contemplating) ‘There is nothing,’ one enters and dwells in the base of nothingness. This is the sixth emancipation.

“Having completely surmounted the base of nothingness, one enters and dwells in the base of neither perception nor non-perception. This is the seventh emancipation.

“Having completely surmounted the base of neither perception nor non-perception, one enters and dwells in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is the eighth emancipation.

eg DN 15, transl BB
User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by L.N. »

Zom wrote:I guess the Commy is wrong here and "light element" is not a kasina (totality) at all. ...
I had been reading the word "kasina" to refer simply to a meditation object (as in "earth kasina") rather than to a "totality." Too mundane?
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by L.N. »

Sylvester wrote:I wonder how these 7 "properties" map onto another scheme that is more common -
A similar comparison was discussed in this topic about emptiness meditation, but a couple of long-time forum members gently suggested that comparing the discussion in MN 121 with the discussion of immaterial jhanas was misplaced (e.g., "Do you want a discussion of jhana or do you want a discussion of what emptiness means?"; "Anyway, I'm not sure why this topic is suddenly about the jhanas, I thought it was about meditation on emptiness"). Yet each scheme includes discussion of the following:
  • boundless space;
    boundless consciousness;
    nothingness; and
    neither-perception-nor-non-perception.
I agree that it may be helpful to consider how these schemes map onto each other.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by L.N. »

mikenz66 wrote:"Monk, the property of light is discerned in dependence on darkness. The property of beauty is discerned in dependence on the unattractive. The property of the dimension of the infinitude of space is discerned in dependence on form. The property of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness is discerned in dependence on the dimension of the infinitude of space. The property of the dimension of nothingness is discerned in dependence on the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. The property of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is discerned in dependence on the dimension of nothingness. The property of the cessation of feeling & perception is discerned in dependence on cessation."
Reading this superficially, I wonder if there might be a comparison of contrasts at play, as follows:

Property ---------------------------------------- Its Contrast

Light ------------------------------------------------ Darkness
Beauty ----------------------------------------------- Unattractiveness

Infinite Space ----------------------------------------- Form
Infinite Consciousness ---------------------------------- Infinite Space
Nothingness ------------------------------------------ Infinite Consciousness
Neither Perception nor Non-Perception -------------------- Nothingness

Cessation of Feeling & Perception ------------------------- Cessation


It's easy to see how light contrasts with darkness, and how beauty contrasts with unattractiveness. One might understand how light is easily discerned in darkness, and how beauty is easily discerned against that which is not attractive. Less intuitive might be how infinite space contrasts with form, but in a way, that makes sense. Form suggests boundaries, limits, some defining qualities which shape the form; which contrasts with infinite space without boundary. In the same way, the infinitude of space suggests a vast absence, a void; whereas infinite consciousness suggests a vast presence.

And infinite consciousness would seem to be an immense "something," in contrast wth nothingness. Similarly, if we notice nothingness, there is still perception of nothingness, which contrasts with that which is neither perception nor non perception. More of a stretch, but maybe these can still be seen as contrasts.

The last contrast is more difficult. How would cessation of feeling & perception contrast with cessation? Or maybe this is all just too much thinking, not enough experiencing (or not experiencing).
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by Zom »

I had been reading the word "kasina" to refer simply to a meditation object (as in "earth kasina") rather than to a "totality." Too mundane?
Kasina as "meditation object" is a commentarial idea. In the suttas it is never used that way.
Sylvester
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by Sylvester »

L.N. wrote:....
Thanks for your last 2 posts. Very engaging!

I'm currently toying with a heretical idea that the concept of emptiness and signlessness have developed a special meaning that is somewhat different from how they are used in passages suggestive of samatha, compared to the vipassana context most would associate them with. Will keep you posted once I've done more readings into the Agama parallels.
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by Zom »

The last contrast is more difficult. How would cessation of feeling & perception contrast with cessation? Or maybe this is all just too much thinking, not enough experiencing (or not experiencing).
Yes, this is an interesting note. But as I see it, this last one just doesn't fit into the scheme of comparing two opposite objects and says that you can discern cessation of feeling & perception simply when everything ceases (because all previous objects (this one and the opposite one) are cognized with a mind, in the last case even the mind ceases - this is why the whole situation is different here).
User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by L.N. »

Sylvester wrote:I'm currently toying with a heretical idea that the concept of emptiness and signlessness have developed a special meaning that is somewhat different from how they are used in passages suggestive of samatha, compared to the vipassana context most would associate them with. Will keep you posted once I've done more readings into the Agama parallels.
I look forward to it.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
User avatar
L.N.
Posts: 504
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 6:01 pm

Re: SN 14.11 Sattadhātu Sutta. Seven Elements.

Post by L.N. »

Zom wrote:Kasina as "meditation object" is a commentarial idea. In the suttas it is never used that way.
Thank you, this is helpful. What is your understanding of the substantive difference between kasina as a "meditation object" and kasina as a "totality. This is not to suggest there is no difference but rather I would like to hear your perspective regarding the difference.
Zom wrote:... as I see it, this last one just doesn't fit into the scheme of comparing two opposite objects and says that you can discern cessation of feeling & perception simply when everything ceases (because all previous objects (this one and the opposite one) are cognized with a mind, in the last case even the mind ceases - this is why the whole situation is different here).
I wonder if the first two sets (light and beauty) might accustom one to using contrasts to enter into, understand, and transition with regard to each property. This practice/habit then operates throughout. With regard to the last three, the transition seems to be as follows: (i) from some very subtle perception of nothingness, (ii) to neither perception or not perception, and (iii) to cessation of perception (and feeling). I would not say whether this is so much a matter of discernment as it is a matter of simply what occurs or does not occur. Does this resonate with your understanding? Metta
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。
Locked