Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

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Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:59 am

Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions {Sn 1061-1068}
How can one become freed of all doubt?

translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Dhotaka:]
I ask you, O Blessed One. Please tell me. I hope for your words, Great Seer. Having heard your pronouncement, I'll train for my own Unbinding.

[The Buddha:]
In that case, be ardent — astute & mindful right here. Then, having heard my pronouncement, train for your own Unbinding.

[Dhotaka:]
I see in the world of beings divine & human, a brahman who lives possessing nothing. I pay homage to him the All-around Eye. From my doubts, O Sakyan, release me!

[The Buddha:]
No one in the world, Dhotaka, can I release from doubting. But knowing the most excellent Dhamma, you will cross over the flood.

[Dhotaka:]
Teach with compassion, O brahman, the Dhamma of seclusion so that I may know — so that I, unafflicted as space, may live right here, independent, at peace.

[The Buddha:]
I will teach you peace — in the here & now, not quoted words — knowing which, living mindfully, you'll go beyond entanglement in the world.

[Dhotaka:]
And I relish, Great Seer, that peace supreme, knowing which, living mindfully, I'll go beyond entanglement in the world.

[The Buddha:]
Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for becoming or non-becoming.

NOTE

Craving for becoming and non-becoming (or dis-becoming) are the two most subtle forms of craving that lead to continued existence — and suffering — in the round of birth & death.

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:08 am

5: Dhotakamàõavapucchà
The Young Man Dhotaka's Questions

Anandajoti Bhikkhu

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf
Listen at: http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond

I ask you, Gracious One, please tell this to me, said venerable Dhotaka,
I am waiting for a word of yours, Great Seer,
having heard your utterance I could train for my own Nibbàna.

Then you must become ardent, Dhotaka said the Gracious One,
being prudent and mindful right here,
henceforth, after hearing this utterance you should train for your own Nibbàna.

"I see in the world with its gods and men, said venerable Dhotaka
a brahmin who moves about having nothing,
therefore I revere you, All-Seeing Visionary,
O Sakyan, please free me from my doubts.

I will not be able to free
anyone in the world who is having doubts, Dhotaka,
but knowing (Nibbàna), the best thing,
in this way you can cross over the flood.
[Footnote: Confidence (saddhà) being a basis upon which to make effort.]

Brahmin! Being compassionate teach, said venerable Dhotaka,
the state of detachment that I should know,
then I, being undisturbed, just like the sky,
may live peaceful and independent right here.

I shall proclaim the peace to you, Dhotaka, said the Gracious One,
which is not hearsay here in the world,
which, having understood, and living mindfully, one can cross over clinging to the world.

I greatly rejoice in that supreme peace, Great Seer,
which, having understood, and living mindfully, one can cross over clinging to the world.

Whatever you know, Dhotaka, said the Gracious One,
above, below, and across the middle,
having understood this is called a shackle in the world,
you must not have craving for repeated existence.

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby kirk5a » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:21 pm

mikenz66 wrote:[The Buddha:]
Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for becoming or non-becoming.

I'm working my way through Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "The Paradox of Becoming." PDF at http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... coming.pdf I've always found this word "becoming" a bit perplexing. Might be of interest to others.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:49 pm

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for pointing that out. Ven Thanissaro places a Sutta with similar wording regarding becoming right at the start of his book:
Seeing this—as it has come to be—
with right discernment,
one abandons craving for becoming,
without delighting in non-becoming.
From the total ending of craving
comes dispassion & cessation without remainder:
Unbinding.

Ud 3:10

And from the preface:
The importance of becoming is evident from the role it plays in the four
noble truths, particularly in the second: Suffering and stress are caused by any
form of craving that leads to becoming. Thus the end of suffering must involve
the end of becoming. The central paradox of becoming is also evident in the
second noble truth, where one of the three forms of craving leading to becoming
is craving for non-becoming—the ending of what has come to be. This poses a
practical challenge for any attempt to put an end to becoming.


Is it possible for you to summarise your perplexity regarding becoming (bhava) in a way that is topical to discussing this Sutta?

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby kirk5a » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:06 am

Hi Mike

Well the English word "becoming" has never gelled for me. What is "becoming" in a non-Dhamma context? When do we use this word "becoming"?

And so craving for becoming? It just doesn't register to my mind. Let's say I crave being a rock star - I don't craving "becoming" a rock star, I want to BE a rock star. I want the part where I am there, not the getting there. (I don't, just for sake of discussion. I crave less interesting things, like pickles. :smile: )

So for that reason, it makes more sense to me to say I crave "being" something rather than "becoming" something, because "becoming" sounds like the "getting there" part, which isn't really what I crave.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:48 pm

Two translations of the last verse of the current Sutta:
Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for becoming or non-becoming.

Whatever you know, Dhotaka, said the Gracious One,
above, below, and across the middle,
having understood this is called a shackle in the world,
you must not have craving for repeated existence.


Some other Suttas that mention becoming:

SN 45.171 Ogha Sutta: Floods
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
At Savatthi. "Monks, there are these four floods. Which four? The flood of sensuality, the flood of becoming, the flood of views, & the flood of ignorance. These are the four floods.

"Now, this noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge of, comprehension of, the total ending of, & the abandoning of these four floods. Which noble eightfold path? There is the case where a monk develops right view dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops right resolve... right speech... right action... right livelihood... right effort... right mindfulness... right concentration dependent on seclusion, dependent on dispassion, dependent on cessation, resulting in letting go. This noble eightfold path is to be developed for direct knowledge of, for comprehension of, for the total ending of, & for the abandoning of these four floods."


AN 4.10 Yoga Sutta: Yokes
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... l#becoming
"And how is there the yoke of becoming? There is the case where a certain person does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from becoming. When he does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, the passing away, the allure, the drawbacks, & the escape from becoming, then — with regard to states of becoming — he is obsessed with becoming-passion, becoming-delight, becoming-attraction, becoming-infatuation, becoming-thirst, becoming-fever, becoming-fascination, becoming-craving. This is the yoke of sensuality & the yoke of becoming.

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby kirk5a » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:33 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions {Sn 1061-1068}
How can one become freed of all doubt?
...
[The Buddha:]
Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for becoming or non-becoming.

I read this sutta as a complete "instruction in brief," similar to the Bahiya sutta. In both, there is the complete survey of what is sensed and thought. Here the focus is on knowing this "as a bond" - in the Bahiya, knowing it as empty of "me." The dukkha aspect and the anatta aspect.

This word "bond" ties in nicely to the etymology of nibbana, which is nir (without) + bana (bindings). So, nibbana is literally "without bindings." To be without bindings is to be "released", awareness "without bonds" - unrestricted.

"Freed, disjoined, & released from ten things, the Tathāgata dwells with unrestricted awareness, Vāhuna. Which ten? Freed, disjoined, & released from form... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness... birth... aging... death... stress*... defilement, he dwells with unrestricted awareness."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ire/1.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby kirk5a » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:46 pm

Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for becoming or non-becoming.

As I said before, this word "becoming" leaves me with a ? feeling. For my own comprehension, I would re-translate this as
"Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for it to be, or for it not to be." or maybe.. "don't create craving for being it, or not being it" hmm that would be an interesting twist.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:33 pm

Hi Kirk, That sounds like an interesting way of looking at it. I don't have anything useful to add right now, but I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to discuss it further in upcoming Snp and SN suttas...

:anjali:
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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:23 pm

Being aware of bonds or fetters:

"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms, he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of a fetter that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)

"In this way he remains focused internally on the mental qualities in & of themselves, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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