Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

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Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:27 am

Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha — Mogharaja's Question {Sn 1116-1119}
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu


How should one view the world so as to escape Death's grasp?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


[Mogharaja:]
Twice now, O Sakyan,
I've asked you,
but you, One with vision,
haven't answered me.
When asked the third time
the celestial seer answers:
so I have heard.
This world, the next world,
the Brahma world with its devas:
I don't know how they're viewed by the glorious Gotama.
So to the one who has seen to the far extreme,
I've come with a question:
How does one view the world
so as not to be seen
by Death's king?

[The Buddha:]
View the world, Mogharaja,
as empty —
always mindful
to have removed any view
about self.

This way one is above & beyond death.
This is how one views the world
so as not to be seen
by Death's king.


Note

On viewing the world as void, see S.XXXV.85.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:31 am

Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha — Mogharaja's Question {Sn 1116-1119}
translated from the Pali by John D. Ireland


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html


The Venerable Mogharaja:
"Twice have I asked Sakka [1] but the Seeing One has not answered me. I have heard a divine sage replies when asked a third time. I do not know the view of the greatly famous Gotama concerning this world, the next world and the Brahma-world with its deities. To him of supreme vision I have come with a question: how should one regard the world so that one is not seen by the King of Death?"

The Lord:
"Look upon the world as empty,[2] Mogharaja, ever mindful; uprooting the view of self you may thus be one who overcomes death. So regarding the world one is not seen by the King of Death."

Notes

1. The name "Sakka" is used here as a title for the Buddha. It means, "a man of the Sakya clan." The Buddha is also sometimes called Sakyamuni, "the sage of the Sakyas."

2. In the Samyutta-nikaya (vol. iv, p. 54) the Venerable Ananda asks: "How is the world empty, venerable sir?" And the Lord replies: "Because, Ananda, it is empty of a self or what belongs to a self, therefore it is said, 'the world is empty.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The "world," here and elsewhere, is not to be understood in the way we usually think of it, but is defined as the five aggregates (khandha) of material form, feeling, perception, activities and consciousness, or as the eye and visible objects, the ear and sounds, etc., that is to say, the whole of our subjective and objective experience.

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Re: Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:37 am

Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha — Mogharaja's Question {Sn 1116-1119}
Posala-manava-puccha: Posala's Questions
Anandajoti Bhikkhu


http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf
Listen at: http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond

Twice I asked the Sakyan, said venerable Mogharàja,
but the Visionary did not answer me, [1]
if (asked) up to a third time the Divine Seer answers, I have heard.

This world, the other world, the Brahma world with its Gods:
one does not know what view of this the reputable Gotama has.

So, to the One With Excellent Sight, I have come in need with a question:
Looking on the world in what way does the king of Death not see (one)?

Look on the world as empty, [2] Mogharàja, being always mindful.
Having removed (wrong) view of self, in this way one will cross beyond Death.
When looking on the world in this way the king of Death does not see (one).

Notes

[1] Mogharàja had tried to ask his question earlier on two occasions, but understanding that he was not ready, the Buddha accepted other questions first, giving him a chance to mature.

[2] This is one of the earliest references to sunnata, which was to play such an important role in the Mahayana teachings.

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Re: Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:27 am

Ven Nanananda's Commentary from Nibbana Sermon 9
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katukurund ... anda_Thera

The last two sections of the Sutta Nipāta, namely
Aṭṭhakavagga and Pārāyanavagga, abound in extremely deep
sermons. In the Pārāyanavagga, for instance, we find the
Brahmin youth Mogharāja putting the following question to
the Buddha: Kathaṃ lokaṃ avekkhantaṃ, maccurājā na pas-
sati? "By looking upon the world in which manner can one
escape the eye of the king of death?" The Buddha gives the an-
swer in the following verse:

Suññato lokaṃ avekkhassu,
Mogharāja sadā sato,
attānudiṭṭhim ūhacca,
evaṃ maccutaro siyā,
evaṃ lokam avekkhantaṃ,
maccurājā na passati.

"Look upon the world as void,
Mogharāja, being mindful at all times,
Uprooting the lingering view of self,
Get well beyond the range of death,
Him who thus looks upon the world,
The king of death gets no chance to see."

From this we can infer that the entire Dhamma, even
like the world system itself, inclines towards voidness. This
fact is borne out by the following significant quotation in
the CūḷaTaṇhāsaṅkhayasutta [MN 37], cited by Sakka as an aphorism
given by the Buddha himself: Sabbe dhammā nālaṃ ab-
hinivesāya. Though we may render it simply as "nothing
is worth clinging on to", it has a deeper significance. The word
abhinivesa is closely associated with the idea of entering into
or getting entangled in views of one's own creation. The impli-
cation, then, is that not only the views as such, but nothing at
all is worthwhile getting entangled in. This is suggestive of the
emptiness of everything.

[MN37}: http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ta-e1.html

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Re: Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:28 am

In the translation referred to above the passage that Ven Nanananda is referring to is translated as:
Here, king of gods, the bhikkhu becomes learned, that anything is not suitable to settle in.

Perhaps someone can give us the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:14 pm

It's interesting there are subtle differences in how the translators convey the "view of self," each making significant implications:

Ven. Thanissaro:

View the world, Mogharaja,
as empty —
always mindful
to have removed any view
about self.


(Seems like Ven. Thanissaro made sure that the view of "no self" will be included.)

John D. Ireland:

"Look upon the world as empty,[2] Mogharaja, ever mindful; uprooting the view of self you may thus be one who overcomes death. So regarding the world one is not seen by the King of Death."


(Seems like it's only the view of self.)

Ven. Anandajoti:

Look on the world as empty, [2] Mogharàja, being always mindful.
Having removed (wrong) view of self, in this way one will cross beyond Death.


("Wrong" in parentheses, implying that there is a right view of self, which would be OK to keep.)

Ven. Nanananda:

"Look upon the world as void,
Mogharāja, being mindful at all times,
Uprooting the lingering view of self,
Get well beyond the range of death,
Him who thus looks upon the world,
The king of death gets no chance to see."


(Seems ambiguous enough... so that "no self" could be considered as a lingering view of self.)

These are only my reading, someone else might read them differently.

:anjali:

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Re: Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby kirk5a » Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:51 pm

"any view about self" would cover the "six self-views" which arise as a result of inappropriate intention, so I think that's warranted:

As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established,

or the view I have no self...

or the view It is precisely because of self that I perceive self...

or the view It is precisely because of self that I perceive not-self...

or the view It is precisely because of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established,

or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower which is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine which is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#ayoniso
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby daverupa » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:02 pm

mikenz66 wrote:In the translation referred to above the passage that Ven Nanananda is referring to is translated as:
Here, king of gods, the bhikkhu becomes learned, that anything is not suitable to settle in.

Perhaps someone can give us the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation.

:anjali:
Mike


Here, king of the gods, a bhikkhu learns that nothing is worth adhering to.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Snp 5.15: Mogharaja-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 29, 2011 12:46 am

Thank Dave, and thanks to others for the interesting comparisons of the translations.

Clearly around anatta there are a variety of ways one can slant one's interpretations...

:anjali:
Mike


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