Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts (Sujato/Brahmali)

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.

Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts (Sujato/Brahmali)

Postby Unrul3r » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:19 pm

Hello Dhamma Wheelers,

I found out a few minutes ago that Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali published their most recent book, Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts, a few days ago and so I thought I'd share this with those who didn't know and are interested in it. You can find the direct link to the book here.

There is a talk on it, if you are also interested:


With metta!

:anjali:
Last edited by Unrul3r on Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Unrul3r
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:29 pm
Location: Porto, Portugal

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby waterchan » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:49 pm

:clap: Thanks for this! That's another of Bhante Sujato's books that's going on my tablet.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
User avatar
waterchan
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 7:17 pm
Location: Sereitei

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:26 pm

Good news!

It's been something of a wait...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4174
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby Jetavan » Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:25 pm

So, are they authentic or not? :reading:
Last edited by Jetavan on Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Jetavan
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:45 am

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:00 pm

Jetavan wrote:Interesting that they seem date the death of the Buddha to around 400 BCE when discussing Ctesias' Indika (p. 17), but to around 470 when discussing the Mauryan Empire (p. 7).


The p.7 reference is "And from the Mauryan empire of Asoka, starting around 130 years after the Buddha..."

The p.17 reference ...does not date the Indika.

I'm not sure how you've come to make such comments...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4174
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby Jetavan » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:11 pm

daverupa wrote:
Jetavan wrote:Interesting that they seem date the death of the Buddha to around 400 BCE when discussing Ctesias' Indika (p. 17), but to around 470 when discussing the Mauryan Empire (p. 7).


The p.7 reference is "And from the Mauryan empire of Asoka, starting around 130 years after the Buddha..."

The p.17 reference ...does not date the Indika.

I'm not sure how you've come to make such comments...

I stand corrected. I misread the page 7 reference, which was to the start of Ashoka's reign (268 BCE), not the start of the Mauryan Empire itself (320 BCE).

Page 17 dates the Indika (which was written after Ctesias was taken to Persia, c. 405 BCE) to a few years after the death of the Buddha.
User avatar
Jetavan
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:45 am

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:26 pm

Unrul3r wrote:Hello Dhamma Wheelers,

I found out a few minutes ago that Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali published their most recent book, Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts, a few days ago and so I thought I'd share this with those who didn't know and are interested in it. You can find the direct link to the book here.

There is a talk on it, if you are also interested:...

Thanks. For those of us who prefer MP3s the talk is here:
http://dhammaloka.org.au/home/item/1640 ... texts.html
And the link to the book here: http://www.dhammaloka.org.au/home/item/ ... texts.html

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10379
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby Jetavan » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:49 pm

From the text, p. 36:

The [Early Buddhist Texts] also depict many deities and practices that are found neither
in the ancient Vedas, nor in the later Hinduism. In addition, they fail to
mention many practices common to the later Brahmanical tradition, such
as the worship of the Śiva-liṅgaṁ and deities such as Krishna,
Ganesh, Kali and Skanda.


I thought that the Ambattha Sutta mentioned Krishna ("Kanha") as a "mighty sage"?
User avatar
Jetavan
 
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:45 am

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby gavesako » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:06 pm

The locus classicus for various deities and non-human beings mentioned in the earliest stata of the Suttas are the Mahasamaya Sutta and Atanatiya Sutta (DN). It was an assumption of "protestant" Buddhist scholars that all such references were later additions.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
Dhammatube - Videos on Buddhist practice
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
User avatar
gavesako
 
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm
Location: England

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby Anagarika » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:41 pm

gavesako wrote:The locus classicus for various deities and non-human beings mentioned in the earliest stata of the Suttas are the Mahasamaya Sutta and Atanatiya Sutta (DN). It was an assumption of "protestant" Buddhist scholars that all such references were later additions.


This is one area that confuses me (among many). I have not studied the Atanatiya Sutta, for example, and am not familiar with the references to deities. Do we assume, as we review the most ancient Suttas, that these references were later additions, or was there an element among the original Sangha that paid attention to deities? I am aware that there are some teachings of the Buddha that reference certain nonhuman beings, and have assumed they were part of the teaching as a metaphor, or as part of a (Vedic or Brahmanic) cultural reference. So, my question is, what relevance do these deity references have as we study the early suttas? Do we ignore them as being largely irrelevant to the Buddha's core Dhamma?
User avatar
Anagarika
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby Unrul3r » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:42 am

The video in the OP is a general overview. In the video below you can find a more in-depth presentation of the book:

User avatar
Unrul3r
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:29 pm
Location: Porto, Portugal

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby alan » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:19 pm

So often I hear the old "we can't know what the He really said" argument to justify picking and choosing according to personal preference from the various religions that trace their roots to the Buddha. This clear and well reasoned paper should lay that to rest once and for all.
alan
 
Posts: 2555
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby binocular » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:27 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:This is one area that confuses me (among many). I have not studied the Atanatiya Sutta, for example, and am not familiar with the references to deities. Do we assume, as we review the most ancient Suttas, that these references were later additions, or was there an element among the original Sangha that paid attention to deities? I am aware that there are some teachings of the Buddha that reference certain nonhuman beings, and have assumed they were part of the teaching as a metaphor, or as part of a (Vedic or Brahmanic) cultural reference. So, my question is, what relevance do these deity references have as we study the early suttas? Do we ignore them as being largely irrelevant to the Buddha's core Dhamma?

I come from a different direction: I am puzzled as to why some people are concerned about what to do with references to deities (or giant fishes, bodiless demons etc.).
To me, references to deities have always been a non-issue; I have never had any particular belief, nor disbelief in them.
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby daverupa » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:36 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:Do we ignore them as being largely irrelevant to the Buddha's core Dhamma?


Why not? As discussed in the paper from the OP, their presence is largely relegated to narrative frameworks and narration generally; hardly a doctrinal issue among them.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4174
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby Freelance ExBuddhist » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:48 am

To answer the direct question ("So, are they authentic or not?") that, frankly, the video seems to dance around, but not really answer:

(1) Here's a substantive explanation in the form of a long essay (in both Chinese and English, parallel), contrasting the extant texts we've got from various traditions, and explaining that the Sutta material fom the Pali canon is, indeed, the best (extant) material we've got to work with (contrary to a lot of innuendo about Sanskrit and Chinese sources during the last hundred years, some of which seemed reasonable at an earlier stage of research, but now must be discarded).
http://a-bas-le-ciel.blogspot.tw/2014/03/canon-and-reason-complete-chinese.html

(2) And, by contrast, here's a lightweight youtube video that only lasts a few minutes, and will answer the same question (without too much depth, and geared, partly, to as a reply the type of hostililty that Mahayanists frequently present, i.e., in refusing to accept that there is any historical validity to the Pali Canon):
http://youtu.be/GzOcSpxKVoA
User avatar
Freelance ExBuddhist
 
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:21 am

Re: Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts

Postby Anagarika » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:26 am

Freelance ExBuddhist wrote:To answer the direct question ("So, are they authentic or not?") that, frankly, the video seems to dance around, but not really answer:

(1) Here's a substantive explanation in the form of a long essay (in both Chinese and English, parallel), contrasting the extant texts we've got from various traditions, and explaining that the Sutta material fom the Pali canon is, indeed, the best (extant) material we've got to work with (contrary to a lot of innuendo about Sanskrit and Chinese sources during the last hundred years, some of which seemed reasonable at an earlier stage of research, but now must be discarded).
http://a-bas-le-ciel.blogspot.tw/2014/03/canon-and-reason-complete-chinese.html

(2) And, by contrast, here's a lightweight youtube video that only lasts a few minutes, and will answer the same question (without too much depth, and geared, partly, to as a reply the type of hostililty that Mahayanists frequently present, i.e., in refusing to accept that there is any historical validity to the Pali Canon):
http://youtu.be/GzOcSpxKVoA


Freelance:

Thanks to you for your investment in the Pali language and the texts. While reasonable men and women can disagree over aspects of the Pali Canon, it is always of great value to have scholars contribute timely articles to the limited body of Pali textual interpretation. Your blog is terribly interesting: http://a-bas-le-ciel.blogspot.ca/2012/0 ... icity.html and I recommend it to anyone looking for another scholarly voice to add to their library of educated and cutting edge resources.
User avatar
Anagarika
 
Posts: 610
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

"Authenticity of the early buddhist texts" (sujato/bramali)

Postby Sokehi » Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:59 pm

by Bhikkhu Sujato and Bhikkhu Brahmali

This text is presented as a supplement to Volume 5 of the Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies.


http://sujato.wordpress.com/2014/04/23/ ... ist-texts/
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
User avatar
Sokehi
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:27 pm
Location: Germany


Return to Early Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests