Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
Coyote
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Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Coyote » Sat May 10, 2014 9:24 am

In a recent talk Ven. Sujato references the fact that the Theravadin school is the only early Buddhist school that recognised only one unconditioned element, nibbana. Other schools apparently had lists of other phenomena they considered unconditioned, besides nibbana. You can listen to the talk here, the reference is about 15mins in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al5QE6LcLX0

I would like to know more. What were these other unconditioned elements?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 10, 2014 9:26 am


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Mkoll
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Mkoll » Sat May 10, 2014 9:29 am

That is very interesting. I wonder what the source is of these lists.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Coyote
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Coyote » Sat May 10, 2014 9:52 am

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

SarathW
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby SarathW » Sat May 10, 2014 11:16 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby bharadwaja » Mon May 12, 2014 5:28 pm

Is there a source for the belief that unconditioned refers to nibbana rather than something else?

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby daverupa » Mon May 12, 2014 7:23 pm


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bharadwaja
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby bharadwaja » Tue May 13, 2014 7:51 am

If a movement is possible from Samsara to Nibbana (imagining that it is the movement from a conditioned to an unconditioned state of being), why would the reverse also not be possible? Is it a mental state that one can change as frequently as one wants (now I am in nibbana, tomorrow I will be in samsara)? Is this why there is a distinction between temporary nibbana and parinibbana?

Or does the unconditioned refer to something else rather than nibbana?

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby beeblebrox » Tue May 13, 2014 6:29 pm


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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby bharadwaja » Tue May 13, 2014 6:50 pm

Last edited by bharadwaja on Tue May 13, 2014 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby beeblebrox » Tue May 13, 2014 7:01 pm


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bharadwaja
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby bharadwaja » Tue May 13, 2014 7:06 pm

Last edited by bharadwaja on Tue May 13, 2014 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby beeblebrox » Tue May 13, 2014 7:15 pm


Coyote
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby Coyote » Tue May 13, 2014 7:20 pm

Nibbana means extinction, doesn't it?

Kilesa-parinibbana being the extiction of defilement, khanda-parinibbana being the extinction of the aggregates.
Such a state (if it can be called that) is asankhata because there is no falling back from it. The extinction (of kilesa/khandha) is final.

Space, and other elements are conditioned because it is possible to attain them, as meditative states, and yet fall back from them. They are supported by conditions and so change accordingly. Nibbana is not a state of becoming, but the end of them. Not something built up, but an ending of the process of becoming, fabrication ect. based on ignorance.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

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bharadwaja
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby bharadwaja » Tue May 13, 2014 7:28 pm


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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby beeblebrox » Tue May 13, 2014 7:40 pm


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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:50 pm

If we are going to discuss such details, I would point out that according to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the use of the term parinibbana as what happens at death is not correct. See his introduction to the SN, quoted here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p209545

I gather that what people here are calling parinibbana, should be called nibbana without remainder.

:anjali:
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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby culaavuso » Tue May 13, 2014 7:54 pm



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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:59 pm


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Re: Asankhata apart from nibbana in early buddhist schools

Postby pegembara » Wed May 14, 2014 5:03 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.


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