Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

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Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby vinasp » Thu May 15, 2014 8:34 am

Thread Title: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Hi everyone,

I think that there is a widespread misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.
It is often understood as representing ALL views of self but this may be
mistaken.

My sugestion here is that it be understood as views of self in the past
and in the future, but excluding views of self in the present.

This would help to explain why we often find discourses where monks who are
more advanced on the path are still being instructed to abandon views of self.

We know that those who have attained the fruit of stream-entry have abandoned
or eliminated the first three fetters, which includes sakaya-ditthi the first
fetter.

However, sakaya-ditthi is not fully defined in the discourses, twenty views
are mentioned, four in relation to each of the five khandhas.

But the khandhas themselves are always defined as past, future and present, so
sakaya-ditthi could be twenty, forty or sixty views.

The Brahmajala Sutta (DN 1) presents sixty-two views of "self-and-world" in
the past and in the future.

Elsewhere, we are told that these 62 views depend on sakaya-ditthi, and cease
when sakaya-ditthi ceases.

Therefore, it is possible that sakaya-ditthi is a set of forty views, twenty
in relation to past khandhas and twenty in relation to future khandhas.

That would still leave another twenty views in relation to present khandhas
not eliminated.

This makes it possible to explain what is being eliminated by those on the
noble eightfold path who are beyond the attainment of the fruit of stream-entry.

Kind regards, Vincent.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Sam Vara » Thu May 15, 2014 9:35 am

My sugestion here is that it be understood as views of self in the past
and in the future, but excluding views of self in the present.


I'm not sure of the finer points of your reasoning, but there is of course this:
“This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I become in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the present thus: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?’

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby vinasp » Thu May 15, 2014 11:10 am

Hi Sam.

If this new understanding of sakkaya-ditthi is correct then it would result
in the following:

1. The "ordinary man" has views of self in regard to the khandhas of the past,
future and present. [past lives, future lives and this life.]

2. The stream-winner [fruition] has lost views of past and future lives, but
still regards a self in relation to the khandhas of this life.

3. The non-returner eliminates these remaining views of self [and other things].

4. The conceit "I am" is eliminated by the Arahant.

Your citation from the sabbasava sutta is hard to relate to sakkaya-ditthi,
this sutta is very early but has some later editing. It probably pre-dates the
khandha doctrine and the four stages.

Hope this is of some help to you. Kind regards, Vincent.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby vinasp » Thu May 15, 2014 11:30 am

Hi everyone,

The 62 views of the brahmajala sutta depend on sakkaya-ditthi - See SN 41.3 Isidatta Sutta.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby beeblebrox » Thu May 15, 2014 2:44 pm

Hi Vinasp,

To me I think it means to "label" things as self, and then trying to take that as something which is self-evident. At stream entry, that belief and/or habit is dropped.

:anjali:

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Mkoll » Thu May 15, 2014 8:43 pm

I think I'll truly understand sakaya-ditthi upon stream-entry. Until then, I can only speculate.

This is not to discount your analysis, which I find plausible. Discussion is helpful and stimulating. But to expect that insight into "things as they really are" will come of it is not. By the way, I'm not accusing you of this, vinasp, but merely making a point.

:anjali:
Peace,
James

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby vinasp » Fri May 16, 2014 3:32 am

Hi everyone,

If we do not know what sakkaya-ditthi is then how can we work on it's
elimination?
If we have some "experience" and some things seem to have been removed we may
ask - is this the fruit of stream-entry? How can we answer this question?

Why do we not have a clear description of the path stages?

The teachings are caught in a contradiction, on one hand they want most people
to believe in past lives and in future lives, and on the other hand they want to
give a clear description of the path to liberation. But they obviously cannot
say of the stream-winner that he no longer believes in past and future lives.
The end result is that there is no clear description of a stream-winner. Is it
any surprise that before long there are no more stream-winners?

We have a chance to restore the true teachings - will we do it?

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 16, 2014 3:48 am

vinasp wrote:If we do not know what sakkaya-ditthi is then how can we work on it's
elimination?

If the case is that we can't know what sakkaya-ditthi is exactly, then why not work on eliminating what you do know, such as sensual desire and ill will?

To use an analogy, maybe as we travel further along the Path, sakkaya-ditthi becomes more clear because we can view it better.
Peace,
James

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby SarathW » Fri May 16, 2014 4:01 am

what is meant by Sakkaya Ditthi

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=20450&p=287277#p287277

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby culaavuso » Fri May 16, 2014 4:04 am

vinasp wrote: If we do not know what sakkaya-ditthi is then how can we work on it's
elimination?


Through the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. Such a practice may result in direct experience that yields an understanding of sakkāya-diṭṭhi deeper than studying descriptions of the fetters can provide.

vinasp wrote: If we have some "experience" and some things seem to have been removed we may
ask - is this the fruit of stream-entry? How can we answer this question?


Perhaps first the motivations for asking the question should be evaluated. What is there to gain from labeling an experience as being the fruit of stream-entry or not? Does it matter for the actual practice, or is the answer something simply desired out of conceit or passion?

SN 22.122: Silavant Sutta wrote:"Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self.
...
"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self.


vinasp wrote:Why do we not have a clear description of the path stages?


How clear of a description is useful for the practice?

SN 41.3: Isidatta Sutta wrote:"But, venerable sir, how does self-identity view come into being?"

"There is the case, householder, where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identity view comes into being."

"And, venerable sir, how does self-identity view not come into being?"

"There is the case, householder, where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... He does not assume perception to be the self... He does not assume fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identity view does not come into being."


MN 118: Anapanasati Sutta wrote:"In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, laid to waste the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.


AN 10.13: Sanyojana Sutta wrote:There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby vinasp » Fri May 16, 2014 5:57 am

Hi everyone,

If someone here in the "west" does not believe in past and future lives, and
does not take the annihilationist view either, and has doubts about whether
there is a real self here-and-now - is he not already a stream-winner?

If he encounters a Theravada group they will try to convince him of the truth
of rebirth, and tell him that if he practices the noble eightfold path then he
may become a stream-winner! [when they have no idea what a stream-winner is.]

Does any Theravada group recognise that someone may already be a stream-winner?
Or at an even higher stage?

Theravada groups are treating us as if we are Iron-Age uneducated farmers.
Giving us dogmatic teachings which are from 2300 years ago.

Without a proper description of the path there is only endless confusion, and
everyone is lost.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Dan74 » Fri May 16, 2014 6:12 am

culaavuso wrote:
vinasp wrote: If we do not know what sakkaya-ditthi is then how can we work on it's
elimination?


Through the practice of the Noble Eightfold Path. Such a practice may result in direct experience that yields an understanding of sakkāya-diṭṭhi deeper than studying descriptions of the fetters can provide.

vinasp wrote: If we have some "experience" and some things seem to have been removed we may
ask - is this the fruit of stream-entry? How can we answer this question?


Perhaps first the motivations for asking the question should be evaluated. What is there to gain from labeling an experience as being the fruit of stream-entry or not? Does it matter for the actual practice, or is the answer something simply desired out of conceit or passion?

SN 22.122: Silavant Sutta wrote:"Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self.
...
"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self.


vinasp wrote:Why do we not have a clear description of the path stages?


How clear of a description is useful for the practice?

SN 41.3: Isidatta Sutta wrote:"But, venerable sir, how does self-identity view come into being?"

"There is the case, householder, where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identity view comes into being."

"And, venerable sir, how does self-identity view not come into being?"

"There is the case, householder, where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — does not assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He does not assume feeling to be the self... He does not assume perception to be the self... He does not assume fabrications to be the self... He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. This is how self-identity view does not come into being."


MN 118: Anapanasati Sutta wrote:"In this community of monks there are monks who are arahants, whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, laid to waste the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of the five lower fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, destined never again to return from that world: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks.

"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks.


AN 10.13: Sanyojana Sutta wrote:There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters.


:goodpost:
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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby vinasp » Fri May 16, 2014 7:19 am

Hi everyone,

The Theravada teachings [four Nikayas] are in a complete mess. They kept on
developing new doctrines, and reworking the earlier ones. It is a mass of
contradictions. No one can understand any of it.

To those who say "no problem, just practice the path", I can only reply -
What path? How do you know that there is a path? How do you know what the
path is? From the teachings of course, or someone's "understanding" of the
teachings.

So why don't we talk about the Wrong Eightfold Path and how a monk can know
that he is not on it? Which path are you on? Are you sure that you want to find
out? The wrong path leads to "wrong liberation" and "wrong knowledge" a
completely deluded state.

Do you know that those on the wrong path think that they are on the Noble
Eightfold Path? Tricky isn't it?

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby pegembara » Fri May 16, 2014 7:59 am

Then Ven. Upali went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute."

"Upali, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities do not lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, nor to Unbinding': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri May 16, 2014 8:16 am

vinasp wrote:Theravada groups are treating us as if we are Iron-Age uneducated farmers.
Giving us dogmatic teachings which are from 2300 years ago.


Which ones?
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Dan74 » Fri May 16, 2014 12:19 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

The Theravada teachings [four Nikayas] are in a complete mess. They kept on
developing new doctrines, and reworking the earlier ones. It is a mass of
contradictions. No one can understand any of it.

To those who say "no problem, just practice the path", I can only reply -
What path? How do you know that there is a path? How do you know what the
path is? From the teachings of course, or someone's "understanding" of the
teachings.

So why don't we talk about the Wrong Eightfold Path and how a monk can know
that he is not on it? Which path are you on? Are you sure that you want to find
out? The wrong path leads to "wrong liberation" and "wrong knowledge" a
completely deluded state.

Do you know that those on the wrong path think that they are on the Noble
Eightfold Path? Tricky isn't it?



Vincent, I confess I am not sure what the problem is. Rather than a mess, I think we have a wonderful variety of practices suited to different personalities and dispositions, medicines to cure different ills.

In fact for me, practice is very simple (which is not to say, easy).

1. Sila: Avoid harm, do good. Meaning when harmful impulses come like anger, blame, greed, pride, etc, I notice them and avoid indulging them and acting on them. This is of course made easier by the subsequent points.

2. Samadhi: Cultivate mindfulness. This is to say a spacious awareness of the multitude of happenings with the ability to focus on one as necessary rather than being carried by the currents or getting stuck. This happens with practice and my main practice has been breath awareness throughout the day as an anchor of mindfulness.

3. Panna: Sharpen and deepen attention both on the cushion and throughout the day, and matters become clear(er). Whether anapanasati or koans or whatever, we see the clinging and realize there is nothing to cling to. Not me, not mine. Release.

Rinse and repeat.
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri May 16, 2014 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby beeblebrox » Fri May 16, 2014 12:53 pm

vinasp wrote:If someone here in the "west" does not believe in past and future lives, and
does not take the annihilationist view either, and has doubts about whether
there is a real self here-and-now - is he not already a stream-winner?


Hi Vinasp,

I think you forgot two other fetters, doubt (of the Buddha, his teachings, and the sangha) and (misunderstanding) clinging to rites and rituals.

:anjali:

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Mkoll » Fri May 16, 2014 1:54 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
vinasp wrote:If someone here in the "west" does not believe in past and future lives, and
does not take the annihilationist view either, and has doubts about whether
there is a real self here-and-now - is he not already a stream-winner?


Hi Vinasp,

I think you forgot two other fetters, doubt (of the Buddha, his teachings, and the sangha) and (misunderstanding) clinging to rites and rituals.

:anjali:

Yes, that's quite a big oversight and I think it counters vinasp's argument well.

vinasp wrote:Theravada groups are treating us as if we are Iron-Age uneducated farmers.
Giving us dogmatic teachings which are from 2300 years ago.

That's an ad hominem, but I'll respond.

I don't feel that way at all. I sought out these Teachings on my own volition. There's no one thrusting them down my throat. If someone's thrusting them down yours, then there's a problem. Please provide more details if that's the case.

Without a proper description of the path there is only endless confusion, and
everyone is lost.

That's a fallacy of hasty generalization. You're coming up with a general rule ("everyone is lost") based upon a tiny sample (you and those you know of). There are probably less than a thousand Buddhists you know and millions upon millions of Buddhists you don't know.


vinasp wrote:The Theravada teachings [four Nikayas] are in a complete mess. They kept on
developing new doctrines, and reworking the earlier ones. It is a mass of
contradictions. No one can understand any of it.

Again, this is a fallacy of hasty generalization. Just because you and those you know don't understand doesn't mean everyone can't.

I won't deny that there are contradictions and some ideas that are pretty ridiculous (e.g. the 32 marks of the great man). But the core of the teachings is sound and simple enough to practice but difficult to practice well. It's summed up nicely in AN 8.53. If what's found in the suttas doesn't accord with that, then it can be set aside for the time being.

I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying at Vesali, in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest.

Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing there she said to him: "It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute."

"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami delighted at his words.
-AN 8.53


vinasp wrote:To those who say "no problem, just practice the path", I can only reply -
What path? How do you know that there is a path? How do you know what the
path is? From the teachings of course, or someone's "understanding" of the
teachings.

I know the difference in my life experience between practicing the Dhamma and indulging in many of my old ways. For the past few months, I've allowed myself to be very lax in my practice: I'm not meditating, reading many suttas, and I'm indulging in excessive sensual pleasures. The difference in my experience is almost palpable. I'm less calm around others, anger arises more frequently and more intensely (especially while driving!), I forget about things more (because I'm thinking more about the next sensual pleasure), and I'm more attached to lazing about, not making good use of my time. I understand how to lessen my experience of these things: by practicing the Dhamma more diligently, as I have before. I don't need anyone to tell me this and no one can convince me otherwise because I've verified it in my own experience.

vinasp wrote:So why don't we talk about the Wrong Eightfold Path and how a monk can know
that he is not on it? Which path are you on? Are you sure that you want to find
out? The wrong path leads to "wrong liberation" and "wrong knowledge" a
completely deluded state.

Do you know that those on the wrong path think that they are on the Noble
Eightfold Path? Tricky isn't it?

I do want to find out the truth of the Dhamma. As for others relationship to the Dhamma, that's ultimately their business.

And I know that wallowing in doubt and criticizing one's perceived shortcomings of the Dhamma is at best, useless, and at worst, leading to the "wrong liberation" and "wrong knowledge" you're talking about.

~~~

I suggest you intensify your practice, for yourself, on your own, for 2 months. Then come back to your old ways. Either way, you'll learn something.

May you be well.
Peace,
James

SarathW
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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby SarathW » Fri May 16, 2014 10:33 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

The Theravada teachings [four Nikayas] are in a complete mess. They kept on
developing new doctrines, and reworking the earlier ones. It is a mass of
contradictions. No one can understand any of it.

To those who say "no problem, just practice the path", I can only reply -
What path? How do you know that there is a path? How do you know what the
path is? From the teachings of course, or someone's "understanding" of the
teachings.

So why don't we talk about the Wrong Eightfold Path and how a monk can know
that he is not on it? Which path are you on? Are you sure that you want to find
out? The wrong path leads to "wrong liberation" and "wrong knowledge" a
completely deluded state.

Do you know that those on the wrong path think that they are on the Noble
Eightfold Path? Tricky isn't it?


Good on you. You are just few steps away from the right path. In fact it is in the other side of the road.
Please make sure you look left then right then left again before you cross the road.
:twothumbsup:

vinasp
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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby vinasp » Sat May 17, 2014 1:31 pm

Hi everyone,

I will argue that a stream-winner cannot have eliminated all views of self.

What do we know?
That sakkaya-ditthi certainly is some views of self.
The question is: is it only some or is it all views of self?


Here is a sutta which I think is relevant to this question.

I have replaced "identity" by the original "sakkaya".

Sakkaya is the five aggregates of clinging, also identified as suffering in
the first noble truth.

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the way leading to the origination of sakkaya and the way leading to the cessation of sakkaya. Listen to that ...
"And what, bhikkhus , is the way leading to the origination of sakkaya?
Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling ... regards form as self ...feeling as self ...perception as self ...volitional formations as self ... consciousness as self ... or self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the origination of sakkaya. When it is said, "The way leading to the origination of sakkaya", the meaning here is this : a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.

"And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of sakkaya? Here, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple ... does not regard form as self ...nor feeling as self ...nor perception as self ... nor volitional formations as self ... nor consciousness as self ... nor self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the cessation of sakkaya. When it is said, "The way leading to the cessation of sakkaya", the meaning here is this : a way of regarding things that leads to the cessation of suffering".

The Connected Discourses of the Buddha. Bhikkhu Bodhi. page 883.
SN 22.44 - The Way.

So, regarding things as self leads to the arising of sakkaya, which is the
five aggregates of clinging, which is suffering.

And not regarding things as self leads to the cessation of sakkaya, which is
the cessation of the five aggregates of clinging, the cessation of suffering.

There is a version of the four noble truths in which the first truth is just the five aggregates of clinging, nothing else. All the other truths are the same as in the normal version. This would mean that the noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of the five aggregates of clinging.

Connected Discourses. Bhikkhu Bodhi. page 1847.[ SN 56.13 - Aggregates.]

There is one question remaining: Does the fact that someone still regards
something as self mean that they still have a view of self?


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