Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue May 27, 2014 9:01 am

vinasp wrote: The "three-lives" interpretation of dependent origination only works when the items are considered in the arising mode. When considering the cessation of these items it makes no sense, instead the items need to be understood in the present.


No, DO in reverse mode means that based on the cessation of the process of becoming in the 3 realms there would be the cessation of the process ( cycle ) of birth and death.
Don't forget that the 3 lives interpretation is just a commentarial addition, it's more productive to consider what the suttas actually desribe. See in particular SN12 and the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Mkoll » Tue May 27, 2014 9:30 am

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

As I was reading SN 12.41 yesterday I noticed something.

"I am one finished with hell ...." Bhikkhu Bodhi.

"I am he for whom purgatory is perished ...." PTS Rhys Davids.

There is an ambiguity here, such a statement can be understood in two ways:

1. Hell realy exists, but I know that I will not be going there.

2. I no longer believe in hell, so I know that I will not be going there.


Those are both views that the stream-winner is adept at seeing as they really are.

I think applying "worldling mind logic" to understanding "enlightened mind logic" works only so far. At a certain point, which I believe we reached in this thread long ago, our predictive powers are no longer applicable.
Peace,
James

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Jones » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:49 am

Dear Dhamma Friends
The Blessed one Teaches in an empirical way, that means to put what he says into practice, if you choose to take up this practice, he never coerced, but gently askes us to try and see what the master is saying. That means not speculating about the past or future, or saying stream entry is like this or that, but instead just to put what he says into practice, which means trusting the Buddha about his vision for the time being, until you can varify it your(self), to completely change your internal thoughts from speculating, and proliferation, to clear insight. From wrong view which is proliferating, to right veiw which is insight into the aggregates. For therein peace can be found, a joy that is beyond words, beyond proliferation of rebirth, surety that is clear and certain.

Samyutta Nikaya 22.80
Alms-Gatherer
"What do you think, bhikkhus, is form permanent or impermanent?"
"Impermanent venerable sir".
"Is feeling... perception... mental formation... Conciousness permanent or impermanent?"
"Impermanent venerable sir".
"Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?"
"Suffering venerable sir".
"Is what is impermanent, suffering, subject to change fit to be regarded thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is myself'?"
"No venerable sir".
"Seeing thus... He understands:"
Last edited by Jones on Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Jones » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:01 am

Samyutta Nikaya 22.22

"The five aggregates are truly burdens,
The burden-carrier is the person.
Taking up the burden is suffering in the world,
Laying the burden down is blissful.

Having laid the heavy burden down
Without taking up another burden,
Having drawn out craving with its root,
One is free from hunger, fully quenched."

Translation by Most Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi Thera.

With respect to the three best jewels, The Buddha, The Dhamma, And The Sangha.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Jones » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:19 am

Dhammapada 373.
When a monk (anyone who earnestly takes up the practice) who has retired to a solitary abode and calmed his mind comprehends the Dhamma with insight, there arises in him a delight that transcends all human delights.

Dhammapada 277
"All conditioned things are impermanent"-when one sees this with wisdom one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Dhammapada 278
"All conditioned things are unsatisfactory"-when one sees this with wisdom one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Dhammapada 279
"All things are not self"-when one sees this with wisdom one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Translation by the most venerable Buddharakkhita Thera

May all beings be happy!

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Kumara » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:18 am

vinasp wrote:As I was reading SN 12.41 yesterday I noticed something.

"I am one finished with hell ...." Bhikkhu Bodhi.

"I am he for whom purgatory is perished ...." PTS Rhys Davids.

There is an ambiguity here, such a statement can be understood in two ways:

1. Hell realy exists, but I know that I will not be going there.

2. I no longer believe in hell, so I know that I will not be going there.

That's interesting. First time I come across this idea. I enjoy fresh readings of the Suttas.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Zom » Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:09 pm

The "three-lives" interpretation of dependent origination only works when the items are considered in the arising mode. When considering the cessation of these items it makes no sense, instead the items need to be understood in the present.

So requiring a stream-winner to understand dependent cessation could be a way of forcing him to drop the belief in past and future lives.


Actually, if one drops the belief in past and future lives, he is no longer a buddhist at all - let alone a stream-winner :D

Don't forget that the 3 lives interpretation is just a commentarial addition. See in particular SN12 and the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2.


Not at all. SN 12 suttas describe dependent origination as process happening between at least two lives, thus 3 lives interpretation is correct. Look, for example, SN 12.19.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby chownah » Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:07 pm

Actually, if one drops the belief in past and future lives, he is no longer a buddhist at all - let alone a stream-winner :D

Thank you for the sage advise which I will paraphrase as "let go of all fabricated thngs" and "don't be anything at all".
chownah

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Zom » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:44 pm

There is another sage advise as well: "Do not let go of raft until you reach another shore" 8-)

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Jones » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:59 am

vinasp wrote:Thread Title: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Hi everyone,

I think that there is a widespread misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.
It is often understood as representing ALL views of self but this may be
mistaken.

My sugestion here is that it be understood as views of self in the past
and in the future, but excluding views of self in the present.

This would help to explain why we often find discourses where monks who are
more advanced on the path are still being instructed to abandon views of self.

We know that those who have attained the fruit of stream-entry have abandoned
or eliminated the first three fetters, which includes sakaya-ditthi the first
fetter.

However, sakaya-ditthi is not fully defined in the discourses, twenty views
are mentioned, four in relation to each of the five khandhas.

But the khandhas themselves are always defined as past, future and present, so
sakaya-ditthi could be twenty, forty or sixty views.

The Brahmajala Sutta (DN 1) presents sixty-two views of "self-and-world" in
the past and in the future.

Elsewhere, we are told that these 62 views depend on sakaya-ditthi, and cease
when sakaya-ditthi ceases.

Therefore, it is possible that sakaya-ditthi is a set of forty views, twenty
in relation to past khandhas and twenty in relation to future khandhas.

That would still leave another twenty views in relation to present khandhas
not eliminated.

This makes it possible to explain what is being eliminated by those on the
noble eightfold path who are beyond the attainment of the fruit of stream-entry.

Kind regards, Vincent.


Dear Vincent
According to the Brahmajala sutta, personality view can be explained especially to people in the west who have been brought up in a society of theistic upbringing, in terms of belief in a soul concept. In this sutta this is best reflected in the partial eternalism section, how theism teaches that our 'soul' after death will go to heaven or hell forever (according to kamma), that there is an erroneously deep rooted beleif that the personalities we have aquired in our lives will remain the same forever after death. This is one extreme. The other extreme view is that the 'self' or 'soul' is annihilated at death, the annihilationism section of the sutta, which the Blessed One also avoids, by teaching the middle way, by letting go of the five aggregates of grasping, which brings peace, the cessation of suffering. The sutta goes into more detail.
With metta.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:12 pm

Zom wrote:Actually, if one drops the belief in past and future lives, he is no longer a buddhist at all - let alone a stream-winner :D

One is a "buddhist" by taking refuge in Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, not by believing in past and future lives.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby thljcl » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:33 am

Cessation of “Identity” is not the same as destruction of “Identity View”. Whether if you are the one who practices for the fruit of stream-enterer, once-returner, non-returner or arahant, you practices for the cessation of craving and clinging of five aggregates. Complete destruction of craving only happens when you attain arahantship; yet a stream-enterer has destroyed the fetter of “identity view”, while an arahant has fulfill the cessation of “identity”. Such description hardly resonates to those who are new to Dhamma; it’s not possible to understand with just words alone.

To understand the context, you need to understand how the fruit of stream-enterer and arahant are realized respectively; without such understanding, it’s not possible to grasp the meaning of those words.

In dependence of craving, clinging to five aggregates arises; because of clinging, views of self of various forms inevitably arises. Does a stream-enterer relinquish clinging yet? Not yet; but he is certain to become an arahant in the future, who relinquishes all sorts of clinging.

Does a stream-enterer has a complete understanding of phenomena of arising and passing; on how they arise; on how they pass away? Not yet; he does, nevertheless, makes an important breakthrough that set him in an irreversible path. Such breakthrough is sometimes explained as the destruction of three fetters: identity view, doubt, and distorted grasp of rules and vows. These three fetters are actually related to each other.

Let me explain the destruction of three fetters in greater details.

It’s only possible for one who practices for the cessation of craving because what was being craved for are not exclusively pleasant; they are impermanent, suffering. The cause for one who carefully attends to origination and passing away of suffering because they suffer and realizes themselves have suffered.

For those seeking an escape, yet they do not know how because they do not have full understanding of origination and passing away of suffering; hearing Dhamma from Buddha or his disciples provides a great opportunity for a breakthrough.

There are different kinds of people who come to the Dhamma. There is a kind of people: when he listens to Dhamma, he does not grasp the meaning and does not attempt to do so. There is another kind of people: when he listens to Dhamma, he has preliminary understanding of Dhamma; but he cannot retain the Dhamma in his mind; he does not attempt to deepen his understanding. There is another kind of people: when he listens to Dhamma, he has preliminary understanding of Dhamma, then he strives to retain Dhamma in his mind; he strives to have full understanding of Dhamma.

Cessation of identity or the attainment of arahantship can also be said as having realized the benefit of true knowledge and liberation. There is a cause for the realization of true knowledge and liberation. The realization of true knowledge and liberation is fulfilled by seven factors of enlightenment.

There is a cause for the arising of craving; there is a cause for the passing away of craving; such that there is a cause for the arising of suffering; there is a cause for the passing away of suffering.

When one understands that there exists such cause, he knows of such path because of what he has learned from others; having established himself firmly in the path towards the end of suffering, his resolve towards the end of suffering is unshakable; as such he knows for himself he is the stream-enterer, the one who would eventually attain Nibbana. To actually attain Nibbana, he needs to practice according to Dhamma; in due time, he eventually sees origination and passing away of suffering, which the destruction of taints eventually occurs.

When one does not understand the existence of such cause; he does not strive to see how suffering arises with cause; he remains in suffering for the time to come.

As such, a stream-enterer is commonly being described as “liberated by faith”; which is to say, he has unwavering confidence in Buddha, Sangha, and Dhamma and is virtuous. The confidence in Buddha is rooted in his faith in the path towards the end of suffering; such that Buddha is the one who discovers it and realizes it himself. Sangha does not refer to the monastic community in this context; but the disciples of Buddha who practices for the realization of Nibbana; namely four pairs of people or eight types of people: those who practices for realization of the fruit of stream-enterer; those who has realized the fruit of stream-enterer … once-returner … non-returner … arahant. This Sangha is also known as “Noble Sangha”, which includes Bhikkhus, Bhikkhunis, Lay Male Disciples, and Female Lay Disciples. Dhamma refers to the path towards the end of suffering. Ultimately, the faith is rooted in Dhamma. The Buddha has told us: dwell with ourselves as our own island, with ourselves as our own refuge, with no other refuge; dwell with the Dhamma as our island, dwell with the Dhamma as refuge, with no other refuge. The reason for a stream-enterer being virtuous, because he firmly takes on the path towards the end of suffering.

Having firmly established faith in the Dhamma, his has no doubt that he would make an end of suffering; such that he is called the one who has broken the fetter of doubt. Having firmly established faith the in the Dhamma, he understands that there arises suffering with cause; suffering passes away with cause; whatever arises eventually passes away; whatever arises are impermanent; whatever impermanent is suffering; he has broken the fetter of identity view. Having firmly established faith in the Dhamma, he firmly establishes himself in the right path towards the end of suffering; as such he relinquishes all other wrong paths toward sufferings; he has broken the fetter of distorted grasp of rules and vows.

Having heard the Dhamma; having retained the Dhamma in his mind; he regularly practices according to the Dhamma to see how suffering arises and passes away himself.

When you’ve just heard a destination; when you’ve heard a path; when you’ve unshakable determination to follow the path; before you actually reach the destination, you still have not reached it until you complete the path.

Having learned the Dhamma, a noble disciple recollects the Dhamma being taught; he carefully examines the meanings; he practices four establishments of mindfulness; attends carefully to how feeling arises and passes away … mind … body … phenomena.

Having broken the three fetters, means that he practices to end the clinging. He needs to see how clinging arises and passes away before he can he actually ceases to cling to six external sense bases. The remaining of clinging is due to feeling; unless he has full understanding of it by seeing its sources, clinging does not end.

In the other word, a stream-enterer realizes that there is problem; there is a path towards solution; he resolves to solve it; but yet to solve it. He is certain to solve it in due time because he is on the right path and does not turn back.

His knowledge of origination and passing away of suffering comes from what he has learned from others; what a noble disciple needs is “direct knowledge”; that is to see for himself how suffering arises and passes away. By practicing four establishments of mindfulness, it is meant to see dependent arising phenomena himself such that he would relinquish all sorts of craving.

Back to the original “supposed misunderstanding” of “identity view”, does a stream-enterer still regards there exists a “present self”? No, that’s not it. He may have retained Dhamma in his mind; but until he fully sees the dependently arising phenomena himself, clinging still remains. There is the difference between breaking the fetter of “identity view” and “cessation of identity”.

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby Mkoll » Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:38 am

thljcl wrote:. . .

I'd just like to say that I enjoy reading your posts. :thumbsup:
Peace,
James

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby SarathW » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:18 am

thljci said:
"a stream-enterer is commonly being described as “liberated by faith”

Can you give me a Sutta reference?
What I can recall is Cula Sotapanna has two types. (Faith follower and Dhamma follower)
:thinking:

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Re: Misunderstanding of sakaya-ditthi.

Postby freedom » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:28 am

Old post deleted!

Sorry for my previous incorrect interpretation of sakaya-ditthi. The correct meaning of sakaya-ditthi is self view (or personality view). Unless one can clearly understand that the five-aggregates are not self and why, one cannot overcome the first fetter. When we really understood this concept, we will have a chance to free ourselves from this world.

Sorry for the misleading that I may have caused. I misunderstood sakaya-ditthi in my old post!
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.


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