[MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Cittasanto
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by Cittasanto »

WorldTraveller wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:It seams that the majority of comparative texts agree the section in question is there. now there is a strange ordering in the pali, but I would sugest that this ordering lends suport to the section on stream-entry somehow being omitted that is present in one of the chinese renderings. But nothing said so far actually shows this section is not originally part of the text.
Running in circles? OP's argument based on Samyukta Agama parallel.

This is about Early Buddhism. The majority doesn't mean anything in this case. The majority of the world believing a creator God doesn't make the God alive! Sometimes Ekottara Agama has weird things than Pali, eg. the Ekottara Agama contains variants on such standard teachings as the Noble Eightfold Path. Scholars suggest that much of the Ekottara Agama was not formed until a fairly late date (A Dictionary of Buddhism, Oxford).
As you appear to understand this is about early Buddhism you understand that All the Comparitive texts are evidence, not just the convenient texts.
Cittasanto wrote:And this makes Chinese texts a translation of a translation, of a translation.
Why haven't you done the homework before commenting? Samyukta Agama wasn't translated from Pali. And Pali wasn't the language of Buddha as some Theravadins believe.
Didn't make any of those claims.
Cittasanto wrote:There are known translation errors with the Chinese, and some curious quirks/errors in the pali. hence Gombrich et al have started to look at these and try to correct any mistakes that have crept in over time. the missing "va" in MN111 may be such a case of an error creeping in or it maybe evidence of something else like you suggest.
It's "ca," not "va." Interesting mistake isn't it, missing it 11 times per jhana? They didn't use Ctrl+C & Ctrl+V either :D
I typed c instead of v and didn't notice. they are next to each other.
Cittasanto wrote:Do note truth has a long history in indic traditions of being attributed miraculous powers and this isn't the only instance in pali where it happens.
Are you trying to judge buddhavacana based on so-called miraculous powers/magic of Indic traditions? Lord Buddha outrightly denied miraculous powers/magic. He gave dependant origination. According to that our past kamma will bare results here, not chanting paritta! One can't change kamma by chanting or praying.
No. pointing out the parita isn't unusual within Buddhism, or wider Indic traditions.
Cittasanto wrote:Do you care to say something about the rest of the previous post you replied to?
It seems OP not interested in trying to be the last of every argument (or rather, useless arguments), so he can run in circles.
[/quote]
the OP can reply or not as they deem fit. And I am sure if they do it will deal with what I have said with reasoned argument and evidence, rather than be a fallacious eel wrigler.

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Cittasanto.
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WorldTraveller
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by WorldTraveller »

WorldTraveller wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:the OP can reply or not as they deem fit. And I am sure if they do it will deal with what I have said with reasoned argument and evidence, rather than be a fallacious eel wrigler.
Red herring.

Give birth to an eel. Put onto someone's hand, and call him "eel wriggler!" :D
:focus:

Is there any other sutta where Lord Buddha asked to chant a paritta/magic to cure someone's sickness as mentioned in Angulimala Paritta.
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

WorldTraveller wrote:Is there any other sutta where Lord Buddha asked to chant a paritta/magic to cure someone's sickness as mentioned in Angulimala Paritta.
Most of the Paritta Suttas cure of diseases, ward off danger, or conquer fear and give confidence.

It's not magic, of course, just the power of truth, confidence, and other good dhammas.
  1. Mangala Sutta (conferring benefits)
  2. Ratana Sutta (curing plagues, infestations of evil spirits)
  3. Metta Sutta (warding off spirits, protection from weapons, poisons, etc.)
  4. Khandha Sutta (protecting again snakes, scorpions, spiders, etc.)
  5. Mora Sutta (protection against dangers)
  6. Vatta Sutta (protection against fire)
  7. Dhajagga Sutta (overcoming fear)
  8. Atanatiya Sutta (protection against evil spirits)
  9. Angulimala Sutta (cure of disease)
  10. Bojjhanga Sutta (cure of disease)
  11. Pubbanha Sutta (protection against evil spirits)
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by cobwith »

WorldTraveller wrote: Is there any other sutta ... to cure someone sickness
You can try the Girimananda Sutta. I guess the rest is just brahmapoo.
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by SarathW »

It did not say that sickness can be cured.
It says
"Now, Ananda, if you go to the monk Girimananda and tell him these ten perceptions, it's possible that when he hears these ten perceptions his disease may be allayed."

I personally do not believe that sickness can be cured by just chanting a sutta.
However a person may be able to purify his though that may lead to healthy outcome.
If Buddha can cure all the deceases then his teaching Dukkaha become a joke.

Can sickness be cured without medicine?


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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

SarathW wrote:Can sickness be cured without medicine?
Yes. The placebo effect is well documented.

Then there are other methods such as practising meditation, as Girimānanda did, to cure disease. All he needed was the right guidance at the right time.
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by SarathW »

Thank you Bhante.
Yes I forgot about it.
Perhaps the faith healing may be similar to placebo effect.
The question is what really happen with placebo effect.
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

What really happens with the placebo effect and with listening to suttas, kind words, etc., is that the patient's mental attitude changes.

I often tell my meditation students, “When you experience physical discomfort in sitting meditation, do not change your position; change your attitude. When painful sensations appear, you are very lucky. Why? Because you now have a good opportunity to gain insight into the three characteristics and remove the causes of suffering. When there is no discomfort, it is easy for the mind to wander here and there, or to fall asleep. However, if painful sensations are present, one has to pay attention to the present moment.”

When a child falls over and injures himself or herself, the mother may examine the injury to see if it is serious. Then she washes it, wipes away the blood, then "kisses it better." The child stops crying, and goes on playing as before. All their distress is gone, and the injury will heal itself in due course. No medicine was used other than clean water, and wiping away the blood.
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by SarathW »

:anjali:
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Re: [MN 86] Fallacy of Aṅgulimāla Paritta

Post by cobwith »

SarathW wrote:It did not say that sickness can be cured.
That is right. Buddha acknowledged a possibility.
For there must be some activity on the part of the sick; other than just reciting a "sutta," backed with ludicrous, superstitious hope.

The sick must work towards the perceptions of inconstancy, not-self, unattractiveness, drawbacks, abandoning, dispassion, cessation, distaste for every world, undesirability of all fabrications, and be mindful of in-&-out breathing.
That is a lot of rational activities, indeed.

Charlatans do not make money out of uncomfortable activity; they make money out of hope. Hope that does not carry negative perceptions (as in Buddha's advice - for the most part). The quacks would rather utilize some charming little "suttas" that are recited in a charming little tone of voice, for a charming wonderful result. That is much more profitable.
SarathW wrote:However a person may be able to purify his though that may lead to healthy outcome.
With quite some noetic efforts and reason.
SarathW wrote:Can sickness be cured without medicine?
Sickness has to be cured with something rational; I presume.
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