Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:17 am

The OP's questions seem to me to be based on certain errors.

He seems to regard a process as a single thing. Thus he takes the continuity of that process as equating to the persistence of a thing. Thus he faults the process for not bearing the mark of anicca. But as far as I know, the Buddha did not teach the 3 marks in this way. Simply, Theravada teaches the supporting condition for a moment of consciousness to be a previous moment of consciousness. Each consciousness moment arises and passes, thus bearing the mark of anicca, inconstancy. Thus not-self. That a process continues to function as long as the supporting conditions continue to arise does not mean constancy is to be found in the process. This is because the details of the process are always changing: one consciousness moment may follow another in an unbroken stream but a particular individual moment will be different than many of the ones before it. This is the mark of anicca, inconstancy. Because it is always changing it is unstable, thus stressful, thus not worthy of clinging to as a self.

Which brings me to the next error: the nature of anatta. The Buddha teaches anatta in a very specific way:

"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'"

Something is atta because it does not become ill or broken or troublesome; it is atta because it is controllable. The Buddha does not say (here or elsewhere as far as I know) that something is atta simply because it continues. Here's the other important thing he teaches about anatta:

"[It is not] fitting to regard what is unstable, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'."

Consider this: samsara is a process which continues. If merely continuing qualified it as a self then it would be fit to cling to. But it is precisely because the process of samsara is so unstable that it is stressful and therefore not worth clinging to. It is unstable because sometimes you've got pleasures and sometimes you've got pains and there's nothing you can do about that. In a similar way the consciousness process is unstable: sometimes your conscious of something nice, sometimes something not so nice. It is anicca, thus it is dukkha, thus it is anatta.

To call a process a "psuedo-self" merely because that process continues appears to me to be using one's own definition of "self" in place of the Buddha's.

When this arises, that arises. When this ceases, that ceases.
All compounded things are unstable.
[It is not] fitting to regard what is unstable, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'.

I hope this is helpful.
- Peter


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:39 am


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby EricJ » Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:09 am

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:10 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:50 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby EricJ » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:09 am

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:13 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby EricJ » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:51 am

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

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retrofuturist
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:35 am

Greetings EricJ,

So long as one moment of bhavanga citta conditions the next, I don't see where there's any "pseudo-self" at play.

If it's the one "bhavanga citta" living on, then that's a different story, but I don't think that's how it's explained in Theravada.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:21 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kc2dpt
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:05 pm

- Peter


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby Kenshou » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:10 pm


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby Sylvester » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:54 am


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kc2dpt
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:19 am

- Peter


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby Goedert » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:53 pm

There is abhidhamma book called Kathāvatthu, that Moggaliputa Tissa do with it.

There is also a translation, Points of Controversy, tr. S.Z. Aung & C.A.F. Rhys Davids (1915, 1993), Pali Text Society.

You can find Pali version here http://www.archive.org/details/kathavatthu00pali


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