I want to ordain..but....debt

[Goofaholix]

Really? Here any pupil can tutor another.

In Thailand a foreigner must have a work permit to work, even voluntary work or just helping out in the family business.

It's easy to to get away with working illegally but if you get caught you'll be deported or have to pay a bribe, helping with his wifes business it's probably easier to not get caught than going to tutoring english students as you are more visible with the latter.

Sure but you have to compete everywhwere, If you're good and work hard, you'll make it.

In that part of Thailand an internet cafe generally charges about 10 baht an hour, about 25c US. So I guess if he had 5 computers If he were lucky he'd make $10 per day. How long do you think it would take before he broke even and paid off the extra debt he'd have to go into to buy the computers?

Neither of the above solve his immediate problem which is to have enough money in his bank account so he can prove to the thai government he can support himself without working.

[Goofaholix]

Fred, it occurred to me that as foreigners can't own land in Thailand your house will be in your wifes name. If the house is in her name then presumably the mortgage is too. So it's her debt, not yoyr debt.

It sounds like splitting hairs but if you are confident she will continue to pay it off out of your pension I think your concience is clear.

As far as Ordination is concerned from what I recall you get asked in pali if you are in debt and you reply in pali that you are not according to the formula.

[bazzaman]

Hi Fred... no doubt you are familiar with the latest info on Thaivisa. My knowlege is dated (I opted for retirement in Malaysia) but I assume you are qualifying based on your monthly pension income. Is the other option (800,000 baht deposit) not feasible. Last I heard it only had to be in the account for the 3 month period prior to annual visa renewal. Interest rates are cheap... maybe a short term loan would not cost very much?
As to ordination, and vinaya... I don't think you are "hair-splitting". As you know there are interpretations of the vinaya which differ from one culture to another.
A friend of mine ordained (twice) at a forest monestary in Burma. The interpretation of the vinaya there was very strict. Not only were monks not permitted to handle money; they were not allowed to have bank accounts. Thai monks seemed to have some difficulty complying with that. It seems that it is permissible in Thailand for them to have bank accounts. (or so I have heard... no doubt I will be corrected if I am mistaken...).
Anyway, the reason I'm relating this is to let you know of the way my friend found to comply with the regs.
The first time he ordained he kept his bank account back in his home country. But the second time, wishing to remove any cause for remorse, he divested himself of all his worldly possessions. The way he did this was by establishing a trust. Nothing was in his name; everything was in the name of the trust.
He ran this by a very well-know senior Western abbot (Ajahn Chah tradition) and was told that it conformed to strict vinaya interpretation.
Of course the rules govening trusts would vary depending on the country they are established in; so you'd have to legal advice in Thailand, or the U.K..
It could be possible that your pension be paid into the trust, and your designated administrator could pay expenses - mortgage and loan payments - out of the trust. I have no idea about how a credit card would be maintained. But it might be a good idea to forsake the convenience of having one, and not have to pay the high interest rates.
Eventually my friend disrobed, returned to his country, and the trust was dissolved.
This may turn out to be more complicated than it is worth; but it may be worth checking out. The critical thing is to have an administrator whom one can trust implicitly; so that when (and if) it comes to unwinding the trust, there is no conflict of interest.

[salmon]

Hi Fabian,

instead of seeking ordination, why don't you speak to the abbot of the temple in Fang where you are currently volunteering at? I believe they might be able to help you apply for a working(?) visa to continue to stay there. I know that there are options for the temples to apply for foreign teachers to teach in their temples, so if the temple you are volunteering at is established enough, getting a visa shouldn't be a problem.

[Clueless Git]

Fred, it occurred to me that as foreigners can't own land in Thailand your house will be in your wifes name. If the house is in her name then presumably the mortgage is too. So it's her debt, not yoyr debt.

It sounds like splitting hairs but if you are confident she will continue to pay it off out of your pension I think your concience is clear.

As far as Ordination is concerned from what I recall you get asked in pali if you are in debt and you reply in pali that you are not according to the formula.

That sounds sensible to me.

It would cost nowt to draft an agreement that switched the debt to another in return for that other receiving the pension money untill the debt is cleared.

If both the debt, and the asset with which to repay it, are transfered into a willing and trustworthy others name; Then I can see no way in which Fred would not be being totaly honest in saying that, prior to ordination, he has made arrangements that settle his debts in full.

Being debt free is, after all, only a matter of having sufficient guaranteed assets to offset ones guaranteed liabilities?

[fabianfred]

Just to bring this topic up to date..
I ordained as a novice on 9th May because I was led to believe by a monk from WPN that even novices who have the Suttee (monks passport) can get the one year R visa ..(unconfirmed as of this date...)
However the abbot of my temple wanted me to ordain as a monk before entering Pansa, especially as i was also teaching some temporary monks and he thought it better if I was a monk and not a novice. he said that as it was not my intention to escape my debt that it was OK.
Now i ordained on the 21st July... In August I will have to go to BKK for the letter to get an R visa....update later...

[mikenz66]

Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu


Mike

[Dhammakid]

Sadhu! May your sincere practice bear great fruit now and later.

Every time someone on DW ordains, I gain a bit more inspiration to do the same sometime later in life.


Dhammakid