Lineage of monks

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:39 pm

chownah wrote:so I am becoming more confident that neither the Buddha nor any one else whose views are recoreded in Pali has taught that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks
I would not be confident. Show us an instance where it has happened. Show us in the Vinaya where it states one can ordain contrary to the rules set up.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:58 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:so I am becoming more confident that neither the Buddha nor any one else whose views are recoreded in Pali has taught that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks
I would not be confident. Show us an instance where it has happened. Show us in the Vinaya where it states one can ordain contrary to the rules set up.

tiltbillings,
I'm not sure if you understand the question. I originally asked, "Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?" , and later (because no one provided a reference to confirm that the Buddha did teach this) I broadened the question to include, "any Pali reference where anyone says that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks.".....and now you ask me to "Show us an instance where it has happened. " Are you asking me to show you where it has been written that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?....I can not do this.....I have said that I have been unable to locate such a reference for this or the broader question....I am asking if anyone can provide such a reference. So far no one has been able to provide a reference which supports that idea that the Buddha claimed or that anyone claimed that only the Buddha could start a lineage of monks.......and with every post which does not provide a reference I am becoming more confident that in fact the Buddha nor anyone else mentioned in the Pali texts declared that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks.

If anyone can provide such a reference please do so....I appreciate all of the replies here even though none of them has provided a reference to the point....there are many interesting comments being made and I am glad that they have been mentioned although I am a bit surprised that so many people seem to be having such a difficult time staying focused on the exact question I am asking.

chownah

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:09 am

daverupa wrote:It's all in the Mahavagga.

I wonder if, after reading all this, the question is answered...

daverupa,
I'm sure that you are aware that none of what you present in your post answers my question and since no one here has provided the answer I'm reasonably sure that the Mahavagga does not hold the answer because I think that there are many people here who are familiar with the Mahavagga and would have responded with the necessary reference if it in fact was found there.....but maybe people have overlooked the Mahavagga and you having mentioned it here will prompt them to take another look at it and see if the reference is there.....I do not intend to read the entirety of the Mahavagga in search of the answer...I'll hopefully have some time to do some selective searching and reading to see what I can find....but please tell me do you think that the Mahavagga contains a passage that will indicate that the Buddha or anyone else declares that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks?...my opinion is that if it was there you would have found it already.....
chownah

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:32 am

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:so I am becoming more confident that neither the Buddha nor any one else whose views are recoreded in Pali has taught that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks
I would not be confident. Show us an instance where it has happened. Show us in the Vinaya where it states one can ordain contrary to the rules set up.

Are you asking me to show you where it has been written that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks?....
I do understand the question. You have not understand the answers. I'll repeat: the ordination lineage was set up by the Buddha and it follows a certain guideline for the ordination to be considered valid. Guidelines not followed, no valid ordination.

Now, the question I asked and you seemed have ignored (or I missed it) is: what do you mean by "a lineage of monks"?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:08 am

tiltbillings,
I am wanting a reference which indicates that either the Buddha or anyone else whose views are presented in the Pali language made the assertion that only the Buddha can initiate a lingeage of monks. If you find a reference that YOU think might show this then please provide it here and we can all see if for ourselves if we think that you have found a suitable reference.
Perhaps you should decide for yourself what you think a "lineage of monks" means and apply your understanding to the question....if you have no idea what a "lineage of monks" might be then perhaps you should do some study of the term first and then go looking for the reference.....just a suggestion....
chownah

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:14 am

chownah wrote:tiltbillings,
I am wanting a reference which indicates that either the Buddha or anyone else whose views are presented in the Pali language made the assertion that only the Buddha can initiate a lingeage of monks. If you find a reference that YOU think might show this then please provide it here and we can all see if for ourselves if we think that you have found a suitable reference.
Perhaps you should decide for yourself what you think a "lineage of monks" means and apply your understanding to the question....if you have no idea what a "lineage of monks" might be then perhaps you should do some study of the term first and then go looking for the reference.....just a suggestion....
chownah
If you are not willing to define the term "lineage," which you have made central to this question, then the question becomes meanigless, and apparently, as we have seen, I would not be the only one to say so..
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 2097
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:44 am

chownah wrote:
daverupa wrote:It's all in the Mahavagga.

I wonder if, after reading all this, the question is answered...

daverupa,
I'm sure that you are aware that none of what you present in your post answers my question
It seems to me that you're being deliberately obtuse, as that does answer the question as I see it. The Vinaya also makes it clear that living as a bhikkhu without taking ordination is "communion by theft" — such a person should be expelled, is not ordained, and cannot be ordained afterwards.

What do you mean by a lineage of monks, and why does it matter? What is your secret agenda here?
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:07 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
chownah wrote:
daverupa wrote:It's all in the Mahavagga.

I wonder if, after reading all this, the question is answered...

daverupa,
I'm sure that you are aware that none of what you present in your post answers my question
It seems to me that you're being deliberately obtuse, as that does answer the question as I see it. The Vinaya also makes it clear that living as a bhikkhu without taking ordination is "communion by theft" — such a person should be expelled, is not ordained, and cannot be ordained afterwards.

What do you mean by a lineage of monks, and why does it matter? What is your secret agenda here?

Bhikkhu Pesala,
If you think that somewhere in the Mahavagga there is an excerpt where it indicates that the Buddha teaches that only he can initiate a lineage of monks then please post it here. The excepts that daverupa posted certainly do not contain that. Or, if you think that somewhere in teh Mahavagga there is an excerpt where it indicates that anyone indicates that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks then please post it here....the excerpt that daverupa posted certainly does not contain that.

If you think that the answer has been given then give me the name of the person who says that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage of monks? I'm asking for names and references.

You ask what I mean by lineage of monks. I ask you to apply your own idea about what a lineage of monks is to my question and go look for a reference which supports the question as understood from your own idea about what a lineage of monks is....then bring the reference here and we all can study it and determine for ourselves if it is what we individually think of as being a ilneage of monks.
You ask why does it matter....then I guess to you it doesn't matter what a lineage of monks is so I guess this entire topic is of little to no importance to you.
You ask what is my secret agenda....my secret agenda is trying to learn about what the Buddha taught......I hope you will help me keep my secret. What is your secret agenda in your replying to my posts?

chownah

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:13 am

You use the word "lineage" in your question, without defining it; when asked to define you refuse, which is a rather poor way of conducting a dialogue.

chownah wrote: You ask what I mean by lineage of monks. I ask you to apply your own idea about what a lineage of monks is to my question and go look for a reference which supports the question as understood from your own idea about what a lineage of monks is
We already have, and you refuse to accept it. This exchange is a waste of time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:19 am

tiltbillings wrote:
chownah wrote:tiltbillings,
I am wanting a reference which indicates that either the Buddha or anyone else whose views are presented in the Pali language made the assertion that only the Buddha can initiate a lingeage of monks. If you find a reference that YOU think might show this then please provide it here and we can all see if for ourselves if we think that you have found a suitable reference.
Perhaps you should decide for yourself what you think a "lineage of monks" means and apply your understanding to the question....if you have no idea what a "lineage of monks" might be then perhaps you should do some study of the term first and then go looking for the reference.....just a suggestion....
chownah
If you are not willing to define the term "lineage," which you have made central to this question, then the question becomes meanigless, and apparently, as we have seen, I would not be the only one to say so..

tiltbillings,
I hope that this topic will help me and others to come to a better understanding about what the Buddha taught....I'm not trying to inject my personal opinion about what a lineage of monks is into the discussion because I am not trying to pursuade people about my existing views....what I'm trying to do is to learn something so for me it is BETTER if people use their own ideas about what a lineage of monks is in answering my questions....then I will not only get the answer to my question but in addition to that I will LEARN something about what a "lineage of monks" is....something new from outside my present experience so that I can get a better understanding of what the Buddha taught. It seem that your insistance on my giving my definition for "lineage of monks" is wanting to focus the topic onto my views and my personal self which I view as being a movement towards indulging in a doctrine of self and I really will do all I can to resist that.

chownah

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:You use the word "lineage" in your question, without defining it; when asked to define you refuse, which is a rather poor way of conducting a dialogue.

chownah wrote: You ask what I mean by lineage of monks. I ask you to apply your own idea about what a lineage of monks is to my question and go look for a reference which supports the question as understood from your own idea about what a lineage of monks is
We already have, and you refuse to accept it. This exchange is a waste of time.

tiltbillings,
Great, if you already have an idea about what a lineage of monks is then please apply it to the question and then if you find a reference where it indicates that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a lineage of monks or that anyone in the Pali texts said that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks then please bring it here and post it.....I'm glad to see that we have cleared the first hurdle and you now know that you can use your own idea about "lineage of monks" in answering the question......so now I'm hoping that you will go find a reference and bring it here and name the name......but I certainly don't want you to waste your time....I'm reasonably certain that you will not find it......seems like if it was there that someone would have produced it........
chownah

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:43 am

I am not wasting any more time with this thread. It just reads as if you are playing games with us. Don't need that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4515
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby daverupa » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:22 pm

chownah wrote:I do not intend to read the entirety of the Mahavagga in search of the answer


Oh I see.

:anjali:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:12 pm

Since no one has provided a reference to show that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a linage of monks nor has a reference been provided to show that someone with a name (or even without a name) has claimed that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage I would like to widen the search to include the question, "Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?" In other words did the Buddha ever acknowledge that he himself was the initiator of a lineage of monks?

Some people are probably wondering why I keep widening the question. I do this because since no references have been produced so far to support a "yes" answer, I am left with the unsatisfactory "no" possibility. The "no" possiblity is unsatisfactory because it can never be completely accepted...it simply means that SO FAR no one has provided the reference which proves the "yes"alternative.........so........I'm looking for Pali references to support three questions: 1. Did the Buddha teach that only he could initiate a lineage of monks. 2. Did anyone in the Pali texts assert that only the Buddha could initiate a lineage of monks (hopefully someone with a name). and 3. "Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?"

chownah

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:33 pm

chownah wrote:Since no one has provided a reference to show that the Buddha taught that only he could initiate a linage of monks nor has a reference been provided to show that someone with a name (or even without a name) has claimed that only the Buddha can initiate a lineage
Only according to you and you unstated definition of lineage. Using the monastic rules themselves as to what does and does not constitute an ordination, the issue has been resolved for those who take the Vinaya as the basis for what a monastic lineage is according to the Vinaya. The rest of your discussion: waste of time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4515
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby daverupa » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:36 pm

3. Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?


He gave ordination to Kondanna, per the Mahavagga. Is this the beginning of a lineage, as you understand that term? Because we need that question addressed before we can proceed to (1.) and (2.).
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:26 pm

daverupa wrote:
3. Is there a reference in the Pali texts where the Buddha says that he is going to initiate a lineage of monks or that he has initiated a lineage of monks?


He gave ordination to Kondanna, per the Mahavagga. Is this the beginning of a lineage, as you understand that term? Because we need that question addressed before we can proceed to (1.) and (2.).

daverupa,
My question is did the Buddha say that he was beginning a lineage of monks? I think not....I think he just said "come here monk". So unless the Buddha said something on the order of "now I'm going to start a lineage of monks"...or..."you Kondanna are the first in a lineage of monks"...or...later did he say "having established a lineage of monks"....or anything else where the Buddha speaks of his involvement in establishing a lineage of monks in either the past, present, or future.....I'm not wanting to widen my question any more at this time since even trying to keep it focused very tightly it seems that people have a hard time following along and if the question gets too broad then I fear total pandemonium will break out....but inspite of wanting to stay focused on the three questions let me put out that something to ponder at this point is whether the Buddha ever in any way referred to the concept of lineage in relation to monks.....now watch and see what happens.....
chownah

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 20080
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:49 pm

chownah wrote: people have a hard time following along and if the question gets too broad then I fear total pandemonium will break out.
Serously? The problem of this thread come from you and your game playing, which has been to simply refuse to define the key element of your question, the word "lineage." And then you refuse to accept anyone else's answer because it ibviously do not meet with your definition. You have been asked directly what it is that you are looking for here, and you refuse to answer.

...but inspite of wanting to stay focused on the three questions let me put out that something to ponder at this point is whether the Buddha ever in any way referred to the concept of lineage in relation to monks.....now watch and see what happens.....
chownah
Again, you have introduced "lineage" here; so, what do mean by it?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

Gena1480
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:08 am

i think lineage of monks
means setting up rules
for ordination of monks
since Buddha set them up
then no one can break them, regarding the Buddha, Sangha, and Dhamma
as for lineage of monks
for different teachings
any teacher can establish them
but that would not be regarding Buddha ,Sangha and Dhamma
metta

chownah
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Lineage of monks

Postby chownah » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:12 am

Gena1480 wrote:i think lineage of monks
means setting up rules
for ordination of monks
since Buddha set them up
then no one can break them, regarding the Buddha, Sangha, and Dhamma
as for lineage of monks
for different teachings
any teacher can establish them
but that would not be regarding Buddha ,Sangha and Dhamma
metta

Gena1480,
Thank you for your reply and telling us what your idea about what a lineage of monks is.....since your idea is that it means setting up rules for ordination of monks then do you think that the Buddha ever said that only he could make those rules? I think that all of the rules for ordination that are in the Pali texts were made by the Buddha and no no one else.... but is there anywhere that it says that it absolutely must be that way? Did the Buddha ever say something like, "no one but me can make the rules?"........I would like to know your ideas on this and also if you can find a reference which talks about this that would be nice too.....
chownah


Return to “Ordination and Monastic Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests