beeblebrox wrote:Cittasanto, why keep on saying "no reason to disbelieve"? In the seen, there should only be the seen... (Bahiya Sutta.)
beeblebrox wrote:Just concerned that you aren't creating some unnecessary dukkha based on hearsay. (Which I believe is the point of the sutta... in reference to the 4NT. But that's off-topic for the thread.)
Cittasanto wrote:Hi Bankei,
they are essentially the same except wording!
I double checked with a contact of mine yesterday, but I do remember seeing a booklet made by a by a former monk ordained in the Dharmagupta tradition then within the Theravadin tradition, and the order is slightly different between the two, but the Theravadin Patimokkha seams to have all the rules they have, and I would hazard a guess that it would be the same between others also, but there maybe rules missing here and there in the other groups of rules.
sometimes the major change is in distance or length or amount, such as in the rules requiring forfiture and confession/confession.
the monk who wrote the booklet made it for free distribution and is living in malasia if I remember, so it maybe available online, his work has become quite popular/he is quite a prolific author, but his name excapes me at the moment, another booklet of his (I think) is only we can help ourselves if someone wants to check, I will try later.
it is quite a big file so can not load it to download, and it is a scan, but I do know it is a free distribution book so no violation of precept or other.
From what I have experienced the Tibetan traditions do not have a 'lifelong ordination' in letter but say it as though it is true in spirit- this comes about as a cultural idea and so it is a often seen as taboo for a monastic to disrobe (even properly) and ordain again. The person has failed to a degree. Unfortunately this attitude strips someone of their humanity and places the implied expectation that one must be morally perfect and free of desire, anger, ignorance to become and remain a monastic
When 'monk' was said the assumption was 'bhikshu'- what about novice monks?
If a novice breaks the vow of celibacy, are they are barred from monastic ordination (novice or full) for life as well?
How does this vary across traditions? What is the 'letter of the law' and what is the 'spirit of the law'?
Specifically and personally (let me know if off topic): I took novice ordination in a Gelugpa tradition and have gotten a variety of responses on my case:
I tried to give back my vows to my abbot, senior teachers, bhikshus etc- and none would allow me to return the vows or would accept the return...so in front of a Buddha statue I verbally said something like:
"No one is taking my vows back, I am giving them back to you for holding since I do not want to break them but cannot be in the current situation and know if I change situations I am likely to lose discipline and would feel I was misrepresenting the community that ordained me...and so I want to return to being a monastic when the circumstances are proper and I can hold that discipline.
I ultimately do not want to disrobe but I know staying in the tradition/center and receiving their dana when I am not committed to the teachers/agenda/sect would be dishonest of me, as would staying a monastic but cutting ties with them and switching to other monasteries that offered me a place. So better I return to lay life, to one day ordain in a community that I can be in harmony with and enter that relationship correctly. I will keep my kasaya, bowing mat and belt as symbol of this promise and it is because I feel in my heart I have renounced but cannot live as a symbol in organization I strongly disagree with."
...and so told people I was no longer practicing as a novice/representing the ordained Sangha and returned to lay life to figure things out. After a few months I had a sexual relationship and this happened on and off for sometime. All the while working on finding a place and tradition that was appropriate (primarily non-sectarian, non-lineage/tradition biased) and dealing with the idea that now I was basically spiritually ruined and I was told I should live in retreat the rest of my life.
Some answers I've had, all from bhikshus and none of which could give a 'scriptural reference' but always seemed to the 'spirit of their practice':
barred for life from novice/bhikshu ordination. better to shave head/wear robes and live in solitary retreat the rest of my life though.
still technically a novice and continually breaking the vow. if i can confess to a bhikshu and reaffirm my refuge and commitment to them- then i would be restored as a novice. good to attend fortnightly confession, one of those would restore the vows.
vows are just the rudder to the big boat of dharma practice. the rudder is still in place and many sutras talk how it is better to be a screw up monk than never at all. Mostly referring to the story of a nun who converted a brothel and all said they couldn't possibly keep the vows but were encouraged anyway.
still a novice, still the right mind for it. put on the robes again, follow the vows, go to fortnightly confession as often as possible, i accepted your confession. confess to the Buddha more, as always we confess delusions and develop virtue. the point of the vows is to liberate the mind from disturbed emotions not cause. up to you to be responsible for your practice and you did the responsible thing at the time.
(Mv.I.60) wrote:Indeed the fortunate one permitted, endowed with ten qualities a novice should be expelled.
What are these ten?
They are one who takes life, thieves, is unchaste, speaks falsely, or drinks intoxicants recreationally, Speaks disrespectfully about the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha, Is one who expounds dissident views, and defiles female mendicants.
Indeed the fortunate one permitted, that a novice endowed with these ten qualities be expelled.
"Buddhist Monastic Code II: Chapter 24", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, November 7, 2009, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch24.html wrote:Only a molester of a bhikkhunī is automatically expelled without further ado. Such a novice also makes himself ineligible from taking the Going-forth or receiving Acceptance ever again in this lifetime.
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