Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei »

I wonder if branch temples of the WPP group are required to pay contributions to the headquarters in Thailand?
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto »

What press release is that? the article which isn't a press release and has completely different wordings to what has been seen previously, so should be taken with a grain of salt until we see an actual press release. disputable proof is still not proof even if it is spread around.

Vardali wrote:
suanck wrote:The English news, in the Bangkok Post, 30 Dec 2009 (also reposted in the Buddhist Channel website), on the recent WPP press conference:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/3 ... ern-clergy

Suan.
"Bitterness and animosity among the Wat Pah Pong monks against Ajahn Brahm is running high and they have accused him of mismanaging temples in Australia. They complain he has changed by-laws and appointed his supporters to run temples.

They are also unhappy about alleged negative comments Ajahn Brahm has made about Thai clergy and Thai Buddhism in his talks overseas.

If action is not taken, the council fears that more women could be ordained in the West.

"Sooner or later, we'll see female monks everywhere," said Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn. He added that the introduction of the Siladhara order, or 10-precept nuns, which was set up by the most senior Western monk, Ajahn Sumedho, as an alternative to female monks in Thailand was also unthinkable.

It would be difficult for the Thai public and the clergy to accept the Siladhara order, he said, because the presence of women creates unnecessary problems for the monks' vow of chastity."

I wanted to comment on this if it was indeed be confirmed, but after reading the press release, I feel everything has been said already.
:popcorn: :alien: :popcorn:
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
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bodhabill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill »

Hi Manapa
by Manapa » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:06 pm
What press release is that? the article which isn't a press release and has completely different wordings to what has been seen previously, so should be taken with a grain of salt until we see an actual press release. disputable proof is still not proof even if it is spread around.
You are quite correct we are still waiting for an offical press release from WPP through either of their main sites http://www.dhammalight.com/index.html or http://www.watnongpahpong.org/indexe.php

The report which appeared as an english version in the Bankok Post 30/11/09 http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/3 ... ern-clergy has been clearly confirmed as coming from the pen of Sanitsuda Ekachai an Assistant Editor (Outlook) of that paper

Sanitsuda Ekachai has confirmed that she was at the press conference and has a copy in Thai of the press release from WPP

The report has stirred up quite a strong reaction on a number of forums I visit and It would certainly be in the WPP's interest to confirm or deny this report and update and issue an english version of their press release soon as possible

With Metta
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acinteyyo
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by acinteyyo »

I just read another report of the Bangkok Post on theravadablog.de about "Thai Buddhism and Ordaining Women as Nuns". If someone is interessted take a look here.

best wishes, acinteyyo
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BlackBird
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird »

bodhabill wrote: It would certainly be in the WPP's interest to confirm or deny this report and update and issue an english version of their press release soon as possible
If you shot yourself in the foot, would you rush around to let everyone know?
If it were false, they'd have denied right from the get go - Because it would be an Ace up the sleeve so to speak. But they haven't, which suggests to me that they're hoping this latest fiasco will just blow over.

On another note, could somebody who speaks Thai please tell me what the differences are between Dhammalight's English page and the Thai page? They seem to have a structural difference and I wonder if there isn't a difference in content?

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by cooran »

Blackbird said: If you shot yourself in the foot, would you rush around to let everyone know?
If it were false, they'd have denied right from the get go - Because it would be an Ace up the sleeve so to speak. But they haven't, which suggests to me that they're hoping this latest fiasco will just blow over.
Not at all.
Bhikkhus of the Forest Sangha have no interest in being involved in a popularity contest, nor should they jump to the often misinformed views of newpapers columnists, or of those who mostly aren't even practising within the Forest Tradition.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Bill, etc,
bodhabill wrote: The report has stirred up quite a strong reaction on a number of forums I visit and It would certainly be in the WPP's interest to confirm or deny this report and update and issue an english version of their press release soon as possible
I agree with Chris:
Chris wrote: Bhikkhus of the Forest Sangha have no interest in being involved in a popularity contest, nor should they jump to the often misinformed views of newpapers columnists, or of those who mostly aren't even practising within the Forest Tradition.
As I've said before, the unfortunate thing about this whole issue is how quickly some jump to assumptions about what various Ajahns think, or are trying to do. As we've discussed, Bhikkhuni ordination has been going on in a low key way for more than a decade, with a sort of quiet tolerance (or a quiet ignoring...). Presumably Ajahn Brahm went ahead with the ordinations in Perth with the good intention that he could use his status to push the issue a little. Some other Western Ajahn Chah Bhikkhus were clearly worried that this would inevitably cause problems because it would be seen as going too far, and set back the process of accceptance by forcing WPP to take some sort of action.

While, of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion, there is no reason for any Sangha to be concerned about the opinion of those who are not engaged with them.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill »

I tend to agree with Jack's opinion

The argument that the WPP doesn't need to be involved in a popularity contest imho is not really valid, they did take that approach when booting Ajahn Brahm and Bodhinyana out, thinking that no one really cared, but when ongoing interest in the matter occurred and public opinion was mounting against them they were very quick to create the dhammalight website to put their side of the argument across

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Bill,
bodhabill wrote:The argument that the WPP doesn't need to be involved in a popularity contest imho is not really valid, they did take that approach when booting Ajahn Brahm and Bodhinyana out, thinking that no one really cared, but when ongoing interest in the matter occurred and public opinion was mounting against them they were very quick to create the dhammalight website to put their side of the argument across
when did Sujatos blog start?
not too long before the ordination. "if you know you are going to war you prepare for war" & "you don't buy guns when you are preparing to farm" I believe these are military sayings. they were having accusations and insults thrown at them, of course they responded, they put up all the information they had, and let people read and decide for themselves.

Brahm knew the consequenses of Bhikkhuni ordination on his membership to the group, they were going in different directions so parted ways (both sides have said it was a parting of ways), but I certainly don't know if they thought people cared or not, I am sure they were not under the illusion that people didn't care about the ordination, but I am also sure they felt that deception was something which needed to be handled, and unfortunately was bound up with the ordination.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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bodhabill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill »

Hi Manapa
when did Sujatos blog start?
not too long before the ordination.
Bhante Sujato's blog as far as I can tell commenced 24/10/09, two days after the Bhikkhuni ordination which was held on 22/10/09
"if you know you are going to war you prepare for war" & "you don't buy guns when you are preparing to farm" I believe these are military sayings.
I don't know who you are attributing these quotes to
they were having accusations and insults thrown at them, of course they responded, they put up all the information they had, and let people read and decide for themselves.
This is the crux of the last few posts, the newspaper report imho has not shown the WPP is a very good light, in fact one could describe the comments reported as being totally out of touch with western Buddhism, not only Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato but also the members of WAM

All I have said is that imho it would be in their best interests to confirm or deny what has been reported

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto »

bodhabill wrote:Hi Manapa
when did Sujatos blog start?
not too long before the ordination.
Bhante Sujato's blog as far as I can tell commenced 24/10/09, two days after the Bhikkhuni ordination which was held on 22/10/09
I believed it was set up before? but the same very quick to create argument could be used.
"if you know you are going to war you prepare for war" & "you don't buy guns when you are preparing to farm" I believe these are military sayings.
I don't know who you are attributing these quotes to
look at the actions leading up to the ordination, Brahm denying organising it, or attempring to act unilatterally, Sujato was building up evidence, for allowing ordination and if you read history of mindfulness, which also reference his view on the Thai sangha, and I remember watching a video of his talking about getting back to the original buddhism, could easily be claimed that he was preparing to fight with a covert propaganda warm up to sway opinion.
they were having accusations and insults thrown at them, of course they responded, they put up all the information they had, and let people read and decide for themselves.
This is the crux of the last few posts, the newspaper report imho has not shown the WPP is a very good light, in fact one could describe the comments reported as being totally out of touch with western Buddhism, not only Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato but also the members of WAM
its not shown anything really, it has shown a rough summery of a press release which uses completely different wordings to what has been used previously. as it was a member of the press didn't she have the capability to transcribe the recording she must of done?
an alternative to Jacks thought may be - as people have already asked about the validity of this, WPP may be thinking; if people want to believe it, that is their priority, if they don't, that to is their priority, so aren't doing anything about it, because if you aren't playing a popularity game you aren't going to care about denying every single thing, but it is strange that it didn't come from WPP directly.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird »

Chris wrote:
Blackbird said: If you shot yourself in the foot, would you rush around to let everyone know?
If it were false, they'd have denied right from the get go - Because it would be an Ace up the sleeve so to speak. But they haven't, which suggests to me that they're hoping this latest fiasco will just blow over.
Not at all.
Bhikkhus of the Forest Sangha have no interest in being involved in a popularity contest.
I never said anything about a popularity contest. But I think it's clear if you weigh up the evidence, that there is a little more on these Bhikkhu's minds than just Dhamma, a good example of this is the Dhammalight website (which somewhat ironically, has little to do with Dhamma at all). Furthermore, I'm not sure if this generalization is helpful, please remember Forest Monks are human beings first and Monks second. Wearing brown robes does not mean one isn't prone to the same ego-troubles as a human being wearing a more vagriated wardrobe. To illustrate I once met a forest monk who was quite prone to getting worked up about US Politics, 9/11 etc... I think by that stage he'd spent a good 20+ years in the robes. Human nature is human nature, and it is my opinion that because of this, veneration and reverence should be based upon confidence and skillful judgement of character.

Hope you've had a good day Chris :)
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'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird »

mikenz66 wrote: Presumably Ajahn Brahm went ahead with the ordinations in Perth with the good intention that he could use his status to push the issue a little.[/i] Some other Western Ajahn Chah Bhikkhus were clearly worried that this would inevitably cause problems because it would be seen as going too far, and set back the process of accceptance by forcing WPP to take some sort of action.
mikenz66 wrote:...assumptions about what various Ajahns think, or are trying to do.
Well yes, and as you've accidentally pointed out, it does seem to be our tendency. For my part, I'm sorry.

metta
Jack :heart:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi there,
BlackBird wrote: Well yes, and as you've accidentally pointed out, it does seem to be our tendency. For my part, I'm sorry.
I was giving Ajahn Brahm the respect of assuming that he was acting the way he thought best. And giving respect to the other Ajahns who disagree with them by assuming that they are acting in the best possible way. I'm not presuming to know the details of the motivations of Ajahn Brahm, or the other Ajahns, merely assuming that they are doing what they think is best.

Metta
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird »

Do you think it's disrespectful to be of the opinion that they aren't acting in "the best possible way"?

metta
Jack :heart:
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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