Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:48 pm

it can be but would that be inferring too far? remember he wasn't dis-robed only removed from the Thai Sangha, someone who has two jobs one at a corner shop, and another at tescos and gets fired from the corner shop for being late repetitively isn't fired from tescos.

until I see a actual statement and the original I am taking this as hearsay, not fact.

BlackBird wrote:
Manapa wrote:he has been stopped from being a preceptor in the Thai Sangha however.


There's an inference to be drawn there my friend :)

W/re to this 'press conference' all we've got is what's on Sanitsuda's twitter, an article that seems to have appeared out of thin air on facebook, and something written in Thai.

Just a little ironic...
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:57 pm

Just went to dhamma light to see if anything was there about this statement, and no, not yet at least, but did notice this
http://www.dhammalight.com/corresponden ... 10-44.html
The article from “Bhikkuni’s problems : the challenging drill of Thai society” book by Phra Promakunaporn (P. A. Payutto), 2nd edition, October 2001 : Sukkaparb-jai press , November 6th, 2009. (Adobe PDF Book)
-Tan Jao Phra Khun Phra Promkunaporn (P. A. Payutto) had made remarks on the problems of Bhikkuni’s ordination in his book that “...mention of constitution to claim that women have rights to ordain to be Bhikkuni is unworthy because women undoubtedly have rights to ordain. The point, however, is no authorized person who can ordain women...”. And he also recommended that “...please also pay attention to the eight-precept nuns. We are the same Buddhists, why we don’t pay attention to them. In case anything’s wrong happens to them, it will bring notoriety to us as well...”.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:14 pm

Manapa wrote:it can be but would that be inferring too far? remember he wasn't dis-robed only removed from the Thai Sangha, someone who has two jobs one at a corner shop, and another at tescos and gets fired from the corner shop for being late repetitively isn't fired from tescos.

until I see a actual statement and the original I am taking this as hearsay, not fact.

BlackBird wrote:
Manapa wrote:he has been stopped from being a preceptor in the Thai Sangha however.


There's an inference to be drawn there my friend :)

W/re to this 'press conference' all we've got is what's on Sanitsuda's twitter, an article that seems to have appeared out of thin air on facebook, and something written in Thai.

Just a little ironic...


Ajahn Brahm certainly wasn't disrobed or kicked out of the sangha - and he couldn't be. He was removed from the membership of the WPP group, that is all. He is still a valid monk. His preceptor status was also revoked by the acting Sangharaja in Thailand. But he is still a valid preceptor according to the vinaya - this is the only authority that really matters.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:29 pm

Bankei wrote:Ajahn Brahm certainly wasn't disrobed or kicked out of the sangha - and he couldn't be. He was removed from the membership of the WPP group, that is all. He is still a valid monk. His preceptor status was also revoked by the acting Sangharaja in Thailand. But he is still a valid preceptor according to the vinaya - this is the only authority that really matters.

WPP can not revoke thai preceptor privileges the Thai sangha can and did when the kicked him out of the Thai sangha, they are not the whole sangha they are a group within the sangha so as long as Brahm didn't break the vinaya they couldn't remove him from the sangha.

Edited to correct errors
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:50 pm

Sorry for the confusion.

What I was actually inferring is that Thai Buddhism is fast approaching the stage where it could be considered an Oxymoron, not that Ajahn Brahm isn't a valid preceptor. The whole idea that a Monk should hold some sort of title that gives him power over all other Monks in a country is absolutely ridiculous, let a lone the idea that he considers that he has the ability to revoke the 'preceptorship' of a monk in good standing, which is completely unfounded in the Vinaya. But then it seems that ecclesiastical heads of the Thai Sangha only really care about Vinaya when it suites, and it never suites when it's in their back yard.

Also here is a comment that Sanitsude Ekachai made in response to allegations that this press conference has been made up:

Sanitsuda Ekachai wrote 6 hours ago
This is ridiculous. I was there. How could the event be just a rumour?
I've got the press releases in Thai in hard copies. I have no idea if they are on the Internet or not.
I took some pictures but I see no point why I have to provide proofs.
The event that got the WPP monks heated up was the Aj Brahm's talk in Singapore in which he was seen as ridiculing Thai Buddhists and clergy. It stirred a nationalistic sentiment -- a foreign monk shaming Thailand, something like that. The video was shown at the press con and the CD was also distributed.
I did not hear what the reporters asked Phra Kru Opas so I cannot say if he said that or not. The reporters are quite young, have little background of the conflicts and his words might be misquoted. Forget the details. The gist is that the Thai WPP monks are upset that they were humuliated by Aj Brahm in his talk overseas. So they want to do something. They want the temple back but they admitted they did not know how to go about doing it so they asked for help from the Office of National Buddhism. It is a small office with little budget. There is almost zero chance that they can do anything. But the nationalistic Buddhist Thais in Perth can if someone made them believe that Aj Brahm is humiliating Thailand.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:10 pm

Hello all,

Though there may be substance in the story behind this blog (it remains to be seen and reported on in an evenhanded way) - it is worth knowing that Sanitsuda Ekachai is just a blogger on the Bankokpost site who likes controversy ~ some people seem to asume she is a top reporter, a bhikkhu or an academic. I can vaguely recall her thinking Thaksin was not such a bad bloke in her blog some years ago. :thinking:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/blogs/index.php/sanitsuda

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:00 pm

Chris wrote: it is worth knowing that Sanitsuda Ekachai is just a blogger on the Bankokpost site who likes controversy ~ some people seem to asume she is a top reporter


Hi Chris

Sanitsuda Ekachai is in fact the assistant editor of the Outlook section of the Bangkok post, not simply a blogger there. At this link here fellow journalist in Thailand refers to her as a Veteran Bangkok post Journalist.

Indeed on this page here it states:
Recently, the educational services staff spent about an hour interviewing Ms Sanitsuda and here are some of the highlights:

On her career
Ms Sanitsuda says she came to the Outlook section of the Bangkok Post about 15 years ago as a junior reporter for the social page, giving her valuable experience in interviewing influential people. After a one-year absence, she returned as a feature writer where she focused on her long-term interest in women's issues. Later she also developed an interest in rural development. She says she is thankful to the Bangkok Post for supporting her interests and her newspaper space for serious reporting of rural issues.


metta
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"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby BlackBird » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:14 pm

Anyway, time for me to let go of the politics, hasn't done me any good. Very easy to get passionate about these sorts of things, when passion is the very thing we're trying to put an end to.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:16 am

Manapa wrote:
Bankei wrote:Ajahn Brahm certainly wasn't disrobed or kicked out of the sangha - and he couldn't be. He was removed from the membership of the WPP group, that is all. He is still a valid monk. His preceptor status was also revoked by the acting Sangharaja in Thailand. But he is still a valid preceptor according to the vinaya - this is the only authority that really matters.

WPP can not revoke thai preceptor privileges the Thai sangha can and did when the kicked him out of the Thai sangha, they are not the whole sangha they are a group within the sangha so as long as Brahm didn't break the vinaya they couldn't remove him from the sangha.

Edited to correct errors


Hi Manapa

I agree, but don't think they have kicked him out of the Thai Sangha. I think he still holds the Thai monastic passport too.

as for
didn't break the vinaya they couldn't remove him from the sangha.

A few years ago there was a monk called Phra Bodhirak. He was naughty and did a few things the sangha authorities did not like - eg. ordaining monks when not a licenced preceptor or qualifying under the vinaya (ie before he had 10 vassa). Although he never broke any of the 4 parajika precepts he was kicked out of the sangha. He refused to disrobe and was arrested and taken to a police station where members of the council of elders forcibly stripped him of his robes. He is still around and still considers himself a monk - do a search on Santi Asoke.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:40 am

Hi Bankei,
I would of thought it would of been revoked or invalidated but who knows?

not heard of that case but it is good they are (attempting at least) cracking down on less desirable members of the sangha. This case may of been as an example and due to the amount of problems, they are taking a harder stance to serve as a warning to others who may wish to exploit the prestige of being a bhikkhu there? but not looked it up and is a guess.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:08 am

Bodhirak was anti-establishment. He had a few strange traits, but overall seemed to be a genuine Buddhist. His group does not participate in the popular aspects such as image worship, chanting blessings, holy water etc. They are strict ascetics, not using money or beds, eating 1 vegetarian meal a day, practicing right livelihood etc. very different from the brahmanical Buddhism of the majority.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suanck » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:29 am

Bankei wrote:A few years ago there was a monk called Phra Bodhirak. He was naughty and did a few things the sangha authorities did not like - eg. ordaining monks when not a licenced preceptor or qualifying under the vinaya (ie before he had 10 vassa). Although he never broke any of the 4 parajika precepts he was kicked out of the sangha. He refused to disrobe and was arrested and taken to a police station where members of the council of elders forcibly stripped him of his robes. He is still around and still considers himself a monk - do a search on Santi Asoke.


At the Santi Asoke's main website, there are photos of him wearing the monk's robe, and they address him as "Samana Bodhirak". If the Thai Sangha no longer accept him as a bhikkhu, why wasn't he prosecuted (imitating a bhikkhu is a grave offence in Thailand)?

Anyway, it's off-topic. Perhaps I should open a new thread! :-)

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Bankei » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:57 am

Suanck. I think it is because he now wears robes of a different colour and doesn't explicitly claim to be a monk - though he has said somewhere that he had never disrobed.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby suanck » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:31 am

The English news, in the Bangkok Post, 30 Dec 2009 (also reposted in the Buddhist Channel website), on the recent WPP press conference:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/30214/monks-target-western-clergy

Suan.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Vardali » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:24 am

suanck wrote:The English news, in the Bangkok Post, 30 Dec 2009 (also reposted in the Buddhist Channel website), on the recent WPP press conference:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/30214/monks-target-western-clergy

Suan.


"Bitterness and animosity among the Wat Pah Pong monks against Ajahn Brahm is running high and they have accused him of mismanaging temples in Australia. They complain he has changed by-laws and appointed his supporters to run temples.

They are also unhappy about alleged negative comments Ajahn Brahm has made about Thai clergy and Thai Buddhism in his talks overseas.

If action is not taken, the council fears that more women could be ordained in the West.

"Sooner or later, we'll see female monks everywhere," said Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn. He added that the introduction of the Siladhara order, or 10-precept nuns, which was set up by the most senior Western monk, Ajahn Sumedho, as an alternative to female monks in Thailand was also unthinkable.

It would be difficult for the Thai public and the clergy to accept the Siladhara order, he said, because the presence of women creates unnecessary problems for the monks' vow of chastity."

I wanted to comment on this if it was indeed be confirmed, but after reading the press release, I feel everything has been said already.
:popcorn: :alien: :popcorn:

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:33 am

Vardali said: I feel everything has been said already.


But still only reports made by the same person, Sanitsuda Ekachai

Nothing authoritative yet from Ajahn Sumedho and the ForestSangha monks in the west
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Vardali » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:43 am

Chris wrote:
Vardali said: I feel everything has been said already.


But still only reports made by the same person, Sanitsuda Ekachai

Nothing authoritative yet from Ajahn Sumedho and the ForestSangha monks in the west


If you can read Thai, a source was also given for
Daily News. Page 14 under the headline “Luang Phu Chah’s monastery in Australia demanded back”.
Thai Rath. Page 1 and 11 under the headline “The (WPP) Sangha demanded back the monastery in Perth”.

I think this is clearly the position from the Thai side; I would guess that the Western Branchs have to align and assess these positions, considering they are valueing their close affiliation with the Thai representatives ....

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby cooran » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:50 am

I don't see that any authoritativ source was given. It is just a couple of paragraphs. Google translates into nonsense.

Has Luang Por Liem spoken on this issue? Has Ajahn Sumedho?
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby ultraben » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:27 am

Well...i can read thai......and no source is given for this article - http://dailynews.co.th/newstartpage/pri ... ntid=39984 - only the date and time is given under article heading..........

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Postby Fede » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:36 am

Vardali wrote:"Sooner or later, we'll see female monks everywhere," said Phra Kru Opaswuthikorn.

Oh I do hope so!
It would be difficult for the Thai public and the clergy to accept the Siladhara order, he said, because the presence of women creates unnecessary problems for the monks' vow of chastity."

Implying that if monks are unable to exercise self-control and restraint, then it's the woman's fault. Of course.
How silly of us..... :roll:

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