Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

[BlackBird]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the response, my understanding of 'shore up' was to drain. Thank you for the correction.

I will work on a more thoughtful response later, for now I'm gonna have a sit.

metta
Jack

[Cittasanto]

I am going to leave it here. I guess I am expecting too much from a Theravada forum.

So what were you expecting? and what do you think you have found?

[cooran]

Hello Manapa,

Perhaps it would be better to discuss that with Ven Huifeng in a PM?

metta
Chris

[Cittasanto]

Hello Manapa,

Perhaps it would be better to discuss that with Ven Huifeng in a PM?

metta
Chris

possibly,
if he wishes to say via PM I would be happy with that.

[BlackBird]

Hi Chris

I guess the drift of my earlier posts was not to do with specific misdeeds, by specific monks, but rather than general trend of the Sasana. Safe to say Thai Buddhism in is a bad way, and needs some serious reform. However, it's the institution that needs reforming, and you're right it's not up to people like me to go around hauling individual monks up about their behavior, that is the business of a Monastic community and that's quite clear in the Vinaya.

Anyway, please have a read of Bhante Sujato's post on projection, if you have not already done so - If you wish to get a better understanding of where I am coming from on this

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/12/20/projection/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

p.s. nothing to do with Bhikkhunis

metta
Jack

[Dan74]

I think Ven Sujato is doing good work in bringing it all down to earth, but for most of us before we are truly ready to embark on a critical examination of the Sangha and the institutions of Buddhism, we should get established in practice first.

Otherwise all this does is shore up the same old nihilistic doubt - "everything is corrupt anyway, might as well enjoy it!" This is a sad travesty that leads away from practice and into suffering.

I am not a Theravada practitioner and nothing more than an interested onlooker with some affinity for the issues and deep respect for the practice. But I would strongly encourage people especially beginners to focus on their practice and put all ideas of monks and institutions to the side. There are great monks out there, worth learning from, and besides worshipping the Sangha, we worship our own commitment to practice and give thanks for the preservation of the Dhamma.

So all the human and cultural accretions, all the hypocrisy and corruption, yep they are there, and we can focus on them and lose faith in the teachings and enthusiasm for practice, or we can take it as encouragement to proceed and not linger.

Surely in our own lives there is much that can be improved?


_/|\_

[BlackBird]

Otherwise all this does is shore up the same old nihilistic doubt - "everything is corrupt anyway, might as well enjoy it!" This is a sad travesty that leads away from practice and into suffering.

Hi Dan

What leads you to believe in the inevitability of nihilistic doubt for one not well established in practice?

What might lead a practitioner to make a sweeping generalization that because institutional Thai Buddhism is largely corrupted, that there isn't honest, diligent and realized practitioners in Thailand, or the world today that they might rely upon as teachers and friends? Furthermore, for one who has come to a rudimentary understanding of impermanence and dukkha - what is there to enjoy?

metta
Jack

[mikenz66]

Hi BlackBird,

What might lead a practitioner to make a sweeping generalization that because institutional Thai Buddhism is largely corrupted, that there isn't honest, diligent and realized practitioners in Thailand, or the world today that they might rely upon as teachers and friends?

I'm puzzled about this statement. Many of us know honest, diligent (I can't assess realised) practitioners in Thailand, or trained in Thailand, supported by Thai institutions and lay followers, that we do rely on as teachers. Without them we'd be nowhere...

Metta
Mike

[BlackBird]

Hi BlackBird,

What might lead a practitioner to make a sweeping generalization that because institutional Thai Buddhism is largely corrupted, that there isn't honest, diligent and realized practitioners in Thailand, or the world today that they might rely upon as teachers and friends?

I'm puzzled about this statement. Many of us know honest, diligent (I can't assess realised) practitioners in Thailand, or trained in Thailand, supported by Thai institutions and lay followers, that we do rely on as teachers. Without them we'd be nowhere...

Metta
Mike

Hi Mike, that question you quoted was in response to this:

Otherwise all this does is shore up the same old nihilistic doubt - "everything is corrupt anyway, might as well enjoy it!" This is a sad travesty that leads away from practice and into suffering.

My pondering on this above quote was as follows:
1. Not everything is corrupt, there is still honest, diligent and realized practitioners in Thailand, or trained in Thailand, supported by Thai institutions and lay followers.
2. After coming to know the true state of institutional Theravada, and becoming disillusioned with it, what would lead a person who is not well established in practice to assume that "everything is corrupt anyway, might as well enjoy it". For nobody is stating that because there is widespread corruption in the Sangha, that honest, diligent, upright and realized practitioners don't exist within it.

I think the way this thread's panned out and particularly threads on Ven. Sujato's blog, may have answered my own question in that through all this talk of widespread corruption and scandal, perhaps we are not quick enough to remind new practitioners that there are plenty of realized beings still on this planet, plenty of honest and diligent practitioners in both Monastic and lay communities, plenty of people to turn to for advice and guidance on the spiritual path.

metta
Jack

[BlackBird]

I'd also like to apologise to you Dan, in case it seems I am being nitpicky, re-reading your OP it seems we're of the same general opinion.

Sorry
Jack

[Dan74]

Good to hear!

I wonder though if we got a pretty skewed picture of Thai Buddhism from a thread like this...

It did nourish these very people that have now come in conflict with it (or some aspects of it).

I guess that Thai Buddhism can no more be called corrupt than Australians can be called racist or any other such generalization. As you say Jack, there are surely great monks in Thailand and even reading some of the discussion at WPP we see that there were quite different voices at work there. But in the end institutions have a strange character of their own, and it should not necessarily be imputed to all the individuals that comprise it.

_/|\_

PS Just saw - no apology needed!!!

[Bankei]

A matter of being truthful
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/sports/ ... g-truthful" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Published: 7/01/2010 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: News

What do you do when you are accused of being untruthful, especially when the accuser is a monk?

I asked myself this question after reading the statement of the Wat Nong Pah Pong forest clergy at http://www.dhammalight.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, accusing my news report for "misrepresenting" their press conference, before introducing an entirely new explanation for the event.

I was first appalled, then angry.

What should I do?

As a Buddhist, my better self told me that the best thing to do is to watch my anger rise, to observe how it grows to engulf my whole body, before it finally dies down.

Honestly, it is not an easy exercise.

After subsiding for a moment, the emotions attacked me in successive waves while thoughts bubbled up to fan my dismay. Although I was boiling within, I took heart in the knowledge that this "dukkha" would not last. That this exercise of detached observation could teach me a bit more about the impermanence of emotion, thought, and eventually the futility of my own attachment to views and sense of self.

Any insight I would gain from this exercise I knew I owe it, too, to the person who has presented me with this challenge. At the end of the day, I am solely responsible for the cultivation of my equanimity. And he his.

As a journalist, however, I am glad that I have the temple's press release to back my news report: .

Following the excommunication of Ajahn Brahm, the abbot of Bodhinyana in Perth, Australia, for sponsoring full female ordination, the forest monk clergy of Wat Nong Pah Pong want the Council of Elders and National Buddhism to help them in exploring ways to get the "Thai temple" back to the "Thai people".

They also want the Council of Elders to issue rules on temple ownership and management to govern temples abroad to prevent Western monks from ordaining more women or violating other mandates from the Thai Sangha.

Nothing was mentioned about an intention to shift responsibility to the Council of Elders to decide about Bhodinyana Temple's ownership and the abbot status of Ajahn Brahm.

I only smelled blood at the press conference which was triggered by Wat Pah Pong's fury with what they saw as the ridicule of Thai monks and Buddhists by Ajahn Brahm during his talk in Singapore.

But being there was eye-opening. We might not agree with the Wat Pah Pong monks' fierce opposition to female ordination, obsession with punishment and control, the unquestioning submission to the feudal hierarchy against the original egalitarian spirit of the Sangha, or their deep attachment to ethnic Thai culture and nationalism.

But we cannot deny they are honest and open about their views and biases.

Come to think of it, how could they view things differently when they are - like most Thais - the products of an authoritarian, hierarchical, ultra-nationalistic culture?

The position of Wat Pah Pong's Thai elders also does not correspond with the portrayal of a rational clergy that upholds consensus decision-making and are open to gradual and timely changes for female monastics as painted in the Dhammalight website, run by Western monks. Obviously, there is a gap between the Thai and Western forest monks. While one is lost in the feudal world, the other is pressured to pacify the Western laity in the 21st century, struggling for balance.

I empathise with the Western monks who are caught between the two different worlds. But with due respect, projecting an inaccurate picture of the situation only compromises one's commitment to truthfulness. Here's the reality:

The Thai Sangha do not accept Bhikkhuni ordination and they have no qualms in crushing dissent.

But there is no stopping change.

The number of Bhikkhunis under the Sri Lankan Bhikkhuni Sangha in Thailand is growing. Their challenge now is to build nurturing, egalitarian communities of female monastics. To do so, it is crucial to face and undo the remaining patriarchal conditioning in one's psyche so as not to repeat the male Sangha's mistakes.

It is a spiritually demanding journey that will benefit many - the male clergy included.

Sanitsuda Ekachai is Assistant Editor (Outlook), Bangkok Post.
Email: [email protected]

Relate Search: Wat Nong Pah Pong, Ajahn Brahm, National Buddhism

About the author


Writer: Sanitsuda Ekachai
Position: Assistant Editor (Outlook)

[Bankei]

Notice this quote from Santisuda above

Come to think of it, how could they view things differently when they are - like most Thais - the products of an authoritarian, hierarchical, ultra-nationalistic culture?

A Thai talking about fellow Thais.

[Cittasanto]

Where is the original press release to back her up?

[Vardali]

Where is the original press release to back her up?

She stated somewhere (Facebook!?) that it was a hardcopy handout. I am assuming that it was in Thai, though (as it was a Thai press conf).
Perhaps you can contact her or WPP if you want a copy of that.