Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

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Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby appicchato » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:50 am

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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby Ben » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:37 am

Hi Bhante

Unfortunately, this is what I get when I click on your link:
Sorry, the page (or document) you have requested is not available.

metta

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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby appicchato » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:15 am

Hi Ben...but it came up for me in this version...give it a go...

western-monks-presentation5.pdf
(187.92 KiB) Downloaded 277 times
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby Guy » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:23 am

Thanks Venerable! :bow: :bow: :bow:
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:36 am

The comments by Ven Sumedho are quite interesting and can be applied to more than just those who ordain.

Thanks for posting this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:27 am

Thank-you Bhante!

tilt - Sumedho emphasises the samana (renunciate) life, not so much the life of a 'monastic' (fully ordained,) there was a quote regarding the Bhikkhunis (cant remember if it was him or the general WPP sangha) where Ajahn Chah taught in the style of 'good enough' i.e., is this good enough to reach enlightenment . . . and I think that will be what is being emphasised by him there.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby Ben » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:52 am

Thank you Bhante!
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:34 am

Quick question,
I have asked this before a while ago but can't remember the responce or the thread it was with to look it up!

footnote 5, as one of many instances says ibid., p... what is ibid??
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby appicchato » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:59 am

ibid...short for ibidem (Latin)...'in the same place'...
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:02 pm

Ah right so all the ibid refferences are to the book, essay etc last mentioned?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby kayy » Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:24 pm

Yep, that's right Manapa.
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:00 am

Greetings bhante,

Thank you for posting this - very interesting and very useful.

Actually, bhante, if you don't mind me asking and only if you feel comfortable speaking on the subject...

As someone who has indeed moved from the U.S. to Thailand to become a bhikkhu, what do you think of the article? Do your experiences in any way relate to those of the others mentioned? Unlike the others, you're still in Thailand... so seemingly your perspective is a bit different.

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:21 am

Thanks Kayy for the confirmation! better to know than to be lost :) I have a word doc with all the titbits of useful info from Dhammawheel now so I don't keep asking the same questions which are off topic or having to look for suggested practices others have found useful etc....

It would be very interesting to know of your experiences, or thoughts/what other westerners have expressed, in contrast to the essay bhante!

particularly regarding this section!
Aside from the language and cultural gap, one of the main reasons why Western monks are unable to integrate fully into Thai monastic life is their ideal vision of a universal Buddhism. These Western monks grapple with how to negotiate between the ideal and the real. When they are able to integrate traditional aspects of Buddhism, they do so with a pragmatic attitude.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby appicchato » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:As someone who has indeed moved from the U.S. to Thailand to become a bhikkhu, what do you think of the article? Do your experiences in any way relate to those of the others mentioned? Unlike the others, you're still in Thailand... so seemingly your perspective is a bit different.

Hi Paul,

Out of the gate...I didn't come to Thailand to ordain...I was here more than twenty-five years prior to ordaining...I found the article interesting, although that's about the extent of it...most of it doesn't apply to me, as I don't consider myself converted, constructing (the ideal, as opposed to the real), nor do I consider myself a missionizer (sic)...I didn't have a problem integrating because I'd already 'gone native', more or less...there was no conflict between wants and expectations...and re-integration doesn't apply (yet, and hopefully won't)...probably what struck me most, if anything, was the wants and expectations noted...to me, for anyone considering ordination, those should be on the back burner...way back...off the stove actually...

Be well friend... :thumbsup:

Manapa...I wouldn't be able to comment really because I don't associate with western monks, not by choice, it just doesn't occur...and I have no view of universal Buddhism...I try to go with the flow wherever I am...
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:01 am

appicchato wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:As someone who has indeed moved from the U.S. to Thailand to become a bhikkhu, what do you think of the article? Do your experiences in any way relate to those of the others mentioned? Unlike the others, you're still in Thailand... so seemingly your perspective is a bit different.

Hi Paul,

Out of the gate...I didn't come to Thailand to ordain...I was here more than twenty-five years prior to ordaining...I found the article interesting, although that's about the extent of it...most of it doesn't apply to me, as I don't consider myself converted, constructing (the ideal, as opposed to the real), nor do I consider myself a missionizer (sic)...I didn't have a problem integrating because I'd already 'gone native', more or less...there was no conflict between wants and expectations...and re-integration doesn't apply (yet, and hopefully won't)...probably what struck me most, if anything, was the wants and expectations noted...to me, for anyone considering ordination, those should be on the back burner...way back...off the stove actually...

Be well friend... :thumbsup:

Manapa...I wouldn't be able to comment really because I don't associate with western monks, not by choice, it just doesn't occur...and I have no view of universal Buddhism...I try to go with the flow wherever I am...


Hi Bhante!
you actually answered my question perfectly! (underlined the part/s)
maybe not what I was thinking of as a response but very helpful, and something I have been (semi)grappling with recently.

after saying that, there is another part of the essay which springs to mind now, and without going through it again, so using my own words, did you have a sense of coming home when you arrived, and ordained, only one, or both?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby appicchato » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:36 am

Manapa wrote:...did you have a sense of coming home when you arrived, and ordained, only one, or both?


Not so much 'coming home' as 'striking gold'...on both counts...
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Re: Food for thought: the Occidental monk in Thailand...

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:27 am

Thanks bhante.

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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