Debts

[Ben]

I have to say as the original poster here i am shocked at recent posts. whats with this 'get a job' attitude??? How remarabley opinionated!

According to who, you?

I can only gather you mumble that when walking past 'beggars' on the street too?!

No, I gave to them. Particularly to the ones who had arms amputated at the shoulder, beggers who had no eyes or have leprosy, polio. People who live in societies where there is no welfare safety-net, people who live in societies where the government does absolutely nothing to assist them following a natural disaster. In other words, people with real problems.

Many of us are in debt not through choice, but as a result of divorce, career changes etc.

And you live in a society where you have access to state-of-the-art health care, access to clean drinking water and food. Whatever your 'problems' are, they are insubstantial given what most people in the world endure. And they are 'problems' that have manifested through your own decisions and choices.

If we decide that we would like to make a change to a more dedicated life to the Dhamma then I would hope that we would be better recieved with a more 'compassionate' attitude than 'get a job'...!

It was actually very compassionate. The OP needs to pay off his debt before he joins a monastery. His question was a no-brainer. If he wants to access 'hard cash' to pay off his debt so as to join a monastery, then he needs to get a job - period.
Its not very 'Dhammic' to attempt to escape one's fiscal or social responsibilities to join a monastery. In fact, its why the Buddha would not receive people into the order if they had not discharged their responsibilities in lay life.

You should be ashamed of yourselves!.

But I'm not.

Look again at your practice!

I do constantly. Perhaps you should look at yours.

[Alex123]

The OP needs to pay off his debt before he joins a monastery. His question was a no-brainer.

Except when the debt is too large, there may not be a real possibility of paying it off. So bankruptcy is a possible solution. If someone has, lets say, 1-10 million dollar debt (was very easy to get in US/Canada without using your own money) - s/he ain't gonna be able to pay it off even with an above average job. The interest alone will set one back.

So what then?

Do we value finances more than holy life as a Bhikkhu?


When one declares bankruptcy, there is no more debt to the creditors. So one is not indebted, and can ordain with no pangs of guilt.

[Ben]

The OP needs to pay off his debt before he joins a monastery. His question was a no-brainer.

Except when the debt is too large, there may not be a real possibility of paying it off. So bankruptcy is a possible solution. If someone has, lets say, 1-10 million dollar debt (was very easy to get in US/Canada without using your own money) - s/he ain't gonna be able to pay it off even with an above average job. The interest alone will set one back.

So what then?

What planet are you on Alex?
I don't think any of our members are in the category of holding a $1m to $10m debt.

[Alex123]

If any of them have small business (especially a failing one), then it would be very likely for them to have that kind of debt. But of course, it varies.

I was giving an example. What should one do if one has that much debt? Debts above a certain amount, can't be paid off especially if we consider interest.

[Ben]

Do we value finances more than holy life as a Bhikkhu?.

I think you've missed the point.

When one declares bankruptcy, there is no more debt to the creditors. So one is not indebted

Really? Tell that to a creditor.

and can ordain with no pangs of guilt.

Again, I think you've missed the point.

[Alex123]

Do we value finances more than holy life as a Bhikkhu?.

I think you've missed the point.

Exactly which point? Can you please state and explain it?

When one declares bankruptcy, there is no more debt to the creditors. So one is not indebted

Really? Tell that to a creditor.

If the business failed due to global economic collapse (Fall 2008), then it is not your fault. It is one in a decade/century event over which you had no control.
Bad stuff happens, this is samsara.

and can ordain with no pangs of guilt.

Again, I think you've missed the point.

Exactly which point? Business ventures fail, often due to factors beyond one's control. Should this prevent one from ordaining?

[Ben]

Do we value finances more than holy life as a Bhikkhu?.

I think you've missed the point.

Exactly which point? Can you please state and explain it?

I have.
One discharges their mundane responsibilities before seeking ordination. Period.
It is why debtors and other people who had familial, social or military responsibilies were prevented from ordaining by the Buddha.
Discharging one's responsibilies before one seeks ordination is the moral thing to do.
And if you don't get that, or if you insist on injecting a ridiculous hypothetical situation into the discussion, then there is no point discussing the issue with you further.

[Alex123]

Discharging one's responsibilies before one seeks ordination is the moral thing to do.

When one (or corporation) goes bankrupt the unsecured debts are written off, and one is not obliged/responsible directly to the creditors. So one could ordain, because one has no more debts. Today's rules are a bit different from the time of the Buddha, and bankrupt person doesn't have to be "in debt".

[grasshopper]

I don't know where this falls on the big moral scale. Maybe it's low, maybe it's high. But the rules for ordaining discuss debt explicitly, and I don't see how bankruptcy fits.

Judging by the yardstick you are trying to imply, how much do you think Mr. Angulimala owed to the families whose loved one he killed before he ordained? Was it all payed back before he was ordained? Was it ever paid back?

[andre9999]

I don't know where this falls on the big moral scale. Maybe it's low, maybe it's high. But the rules for ordaining discuss debt explicitly, and I don't see how bankruptcy fits.

Judging by the yardstick you are trying to imply, how much do you think Mr. Angulimala owed to the families whose loved one he killed before he ordained? Was it all payed back before he was ordained? Was it ever paid back?

You seem to have misread this, as I am not trying to imply anything. This statement says that regardless of whether this is moral or not, the monastic code states the rules for ordaining if you have debt. Choosing bankruptcy, when there is a choice, does not seem to fit.

[andre9999]

When one (or corporation) goes bankrupt the unsecured debts are written off, and one is not obliged/responsible directly to the creditors. So one could ordain, because one has no more debts. Today's rules are a bit different from the time of the Buddha, and bankrupt person doesn't have to be "in debt".

A corporation going bankrupt is irrelevant. Corporations do not ordain. The OP is not a millionaire, so your hypothetical of that is irrelevant too, even as an analogy.

We are talking about having debt, then making choices in life to not be able to fulfill that debt. I would like to go work in non-profit too, but guess why I can't? Because I have debt and a family to feed.

We're not talking about people who find themselves suddenly disabled. We're not talking about people who find themselves out of work for a year. We're talking about someone who wants to stick someone else with the bill so that they can go ordain and be moral - the irony apparently escapes some of us.

[Phra Chuntawongso]

Reading the OP again it is clear to me that Ashtanga is not bankrupt.There are debts that seemingly will take a heck of a long time(at the very least)to pay off.While I am always happy to see people wishing to ordain,unfortunatly I don't see this idea of a voluntary bankrupcy as being the best solution.People are going to be hurt by this action,and I am sure that this is not what anyone here would like to see.
Perhaps there is some way to increase your earnings,therefore getting out of debt faster.In the mean time just keep up your practice.You don't need to ordain to attain enlightenment.
Hopefully some one might come up with some ideas about making some extra dosh.
I wish you all the best.
With metta.

[PeterB]

As things stand i think most preceptors would see this as a running away from debts....a situation in antiticipation of which that section of the Vinaya
exists.. If so it renders much of this thread redundant........ because it aint going to happen.

The only definitive way to find out is for you, Ashtanga, to put it to the test.

[ashtanga]

Quite simply, I would be refused ordination... At least I know where I stand with this particular tradition. Pity.

[PeterB]

If you consider that kamma and punna have an effect here, then it will free you consider other options without regret.