Debts

[ashtanga]

I would like to consider ordaining at some juncture. However, I have some debts that although being managed will never be paid off. What are my options? Bancruptcy?

Thanks Tony...

[PeterB]

Hmmm...I am sure the good forum Bhikkhus will correct me if wrong, but I am not sure that a procedure like bankruptcy is allowed for in the Vinaya.

[ashtanga]

...well in the current climate there are likely to be only middle class people with no debts liable to be ordaining in the future. Credit is a fact of life nowadays!

Tony.,..

[Phra Chuntawongso]

Bankrupcy may not be something that happened in the time of the Buddha.
I personally don't know about the implications of this,but will ask my Abbot if he has an answer and will get back at a later time.
With metta,
Phra Greg

[andre9999]

I'm a little out of my league here, but try this:

Undesirable. Applicants falling into the following categories should not be given the Going-forth. As Going-forth is the customary first step in full Acceptance, this means that they should not receive full Acceptance, either. Any bhikkhu who gives any of these applicants the Going-forth incurs a dukkaṭa. However, the applicant does count as having properly gone forth; if fully accepted he is properly accepted and need not be expelled.

<snip>

2-C A debtor. Here the Commentary says that debtor includes one who has inherited debts from his parents or grandparents, as well as one who has incurred debts on his own. If others agree to take on the debts or take over their payment, he may go forth. If Bhikkhu X gives the Going-forth to Y, not knowing that Y has debts but later learning the truth, he should take Y to his creditors if he can get hold of him. If he can't, he is not responsible for the debts. If he feels so inspired, he may undertake to pay off Y's debts if he feels that Y is serious about the practice. But he may not give the Going-forth to Y, knowing of Y's debts beforehand, with the intention of paying them off himself. If he does, he incurs a dukkaṭa.

BMC 2, Chapter 14,

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/bmc2.ch14.html

Looks like there are your instructions for clearing up the problem. You need to find someone else to take over the payments for you.

[Goofaholix]

I would like to consider ordaining at some juncture. However, I have some debts that although being managed will never be paid off. What are my options? Bancruptcy?

So you have no assets that can be sold?

[ashtanga]

Not enough assets to cover my debt. I worked in IT for nearly two decades that brought with it plenty of money but also plenty of credit. I then changed several years ago to work in social care. I am a Psychologicalo Therapist now, my current salary is what I used to get for a bonus. I managed my debts but they will never get paid off.

Tony...

[rowyourboat]

Hi Ashtanga

I think the issue with debts is that no-one should make the Sangha a refuge from debt (money owed to others). If you file for bankruptcy your debts will be written off. It will be a good act of renunciation to begin with, before you go for the actual one.

with metta

Matheesha

[andre9999]

I think the issue with debts is that no-one should make the Sangha a refuge from debt (money owed to others). If you file for bankruptcy your debts will be written off. It will be a good act of renunciation to begin with, before you go for the actual one.

Written off? Where do you think that debt disappears to?

[PeterB]

Sorry Matheesha but I dont think UK bankruptcy works that way. Ones debts are seldom written off. The bankrupt person is usually required to pay off an agreed amount in the pound. If they have no no assets then the time will be extended, not waived.

[cooran]

Hi Ashtanga

I think the issue with debts is that no-one should make the Sangha a refuge from debt (money owed to others). If you file for bankruptcy your debts will be written off. It will be a good act of renunciation to begin with, before you go for the actual one.

with metta

Matheesha

Sorry ryb, but this sounds dishonest, not an act of renunciation at all. I would not like to be a businessman, with all the worries of trying to run a business and pay staff, and have the law such that people could just enter voluntary bankruptcy and wipe what is owed to me and my family away. The same goes on a bigger scale.
And if the time as a bhikkhu doesn't end up being a life-time thing, as very often it doesn't, then the OP would have created huge problems for himself in re-entering lay society.

What Renunciation means is Nekkhamma - you may like to read these selections:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... #nekkhamma

Better to save up and do long retreats.

with metta
Chris
with metta
Chris

[householder]

I'm not an insolvency practitioner. But if your debts are a problem, seek professional advice. Some loans do survive bankruptcy by statute, for example. My understanding is that it is not an easy way out and is something that should not be taken lightly.

Do retreats at centres that can accommodate your limited means, or explain your circumstances if you wish to attend a centre which may not seem to on first blush. Your financial situation should not be a hindrance to practice, but unskilfully dealing with your financial situation would, I believe, be a hindrance to your practice.

[Annapurna]

Hello, Ashtanga,

have you seen a debt counsellor?

Often a debt counsellor can mediate between the parties and achieve satisfying compromises for both parties.

In all probability the ones you owe money to, banks, etc, will agree to giving up a part of the money voluntarily, if a professional steps in and renegotiates the conditons of a realistic and reasonable compensation that they would have never agreed to if they were dealing with a 'normal mortal'.

That would be a first step, and then you will see with how much debt you are left, and for how long.

I have never heard before that people have to pay until they die.

Compromises and other conditions are always possible.

In one case, that I personally know, a bank wanted to take the house from a woman, because she could not pay the debts off. (Not me)

The whole thing ended up before a judge, and he decided the bank has to offer new conditions, which allowed her to pay her debts off.

Please get help.

After a solution is worked out here, you can reconsider ordaining.

Good luck!

[kirk5a]

Sorry ryb, but this sounds dishonest, not an act of renunciation at all. I would not like to be a businessman, with all the worries of trying to run a business and pay staff, and have the law such that people could just enter voluntary bankruptcy and wipe what is owed to me and my family away. The same goes on a bigger scale.
And if the time as a bhikkhu doesn't end up being a life-time thing, as very often it doesn't, then the OP would have created huge problems for himself in re-entering lay society.

What Renunciation means is Nekkhamma - you may like to read these selections:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... #nekkhamma

Better to save up and do long retreats.

with metta
Chris
with metta
Chris

Wait a minute now - bankruptcy is a legal matter, not a moral one. In the US, one has to go through a rigorous legal proceeding to have one's debts legally discharged, and it is up to a judge to determine whether one qualifies and under what bankruptcy code. If the circumstances of someone's life are such that they are unable to meet their debt obligations, bankruptcy is a completely rational choice and there is nothing whatsoever dishonest about it. If a judge finds that someone has incurred debt with the idea, ahead of time, they would discharge it through bankruptcy they can deny the discharge. Again, this is strictly a legal matter. I see no reason why someone seeking ordination without any realistic way to pay off their debt should not investigate bankruptcy.

[PeterB]

I rather think that would come down to the view of the preceptor.

[Annapurna]

And btw, inheriting debts....in Germany you don't have to accept an inheritance.

If you inherit debts, you can reject it.

[Goofaholix]

Not enough assets to cover my debt. I worked in IT for nearly two decades that brought with it plenty of money but also plenty of credit. I then changed several years ago to work in social care. I am a Psychologicalo Therapist now, my current salary is what I used to get for a bonus. I managed my debts but they will never get paid off.

Tony...

I think the answer is if you really want to be a monk then go back and work in IT to pay off your debts, if you aren't happy to do that then you probably don't really want to be a monk, being a Psychological Therapist is probably what you want.

[PeterB]

Its just the kind of topic where the input from our Bhikkhu members would be invaluable. .........

[Annapurna]

Not enough assets to cover my debt. I worked in IT for nearly two decades that brought with it plenty of money but also plenty of credit. I then changed several years ago to work in social care. I am a Psychologicalo Therapist now, my current salary is what I used to get for a bonus. I managed my debts but they will never get paid off.

Tony...

I think the answer is if you really want to be a monk then go back and work in IT to pay off your debts, if you aren't happy to do that then you probably don't really want to be a monk, being a Psychological Therapist is probably what you want.

Perhaps there are other issues that play a role as well. And I don't think it is so easy so switch, once you've been out IT for a while and a bit older.

[ashtanga]

...this is true. I have been out of IT for too long now. I never had any intentioin on getting ito debt, it was a negative result of embarking on a more compassionate career so late in life. |Maybe I should have stayed in IT making ££££'s but doing little for anyone but large corporations

I am not in MASSIVE debt but what I owe I manage each month as a 'gesture'. This however, means that it will never be paid off - there's a green dot next to my account which means its in hand lol

I am not being impulsive either. I have been a Buddhist for over 20 years now. My daughter is 17 and ithin a couple of years probable looking to get her own place. Perfect time for me to consider ordination. If I cannot be accepted with the Forest Tradition maybe I will have to look to other more leniant traditions?

Tony...