Debts

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Debts

Postby ashtanga » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:51 pm

I would like to consider ordaining at some juncture. However, I have some debts that although being managed will never be paid off. What are my options? Bancruptcy? :broke:

Thanks Tony...
ashtanga
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:44 pm

Hmmm...I am sure the good forum Bhikkhus will correct me if wrong, but I am not sure that a procedure like bankruptcy is allowed for in the Vinaya.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby ashtanga » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:42 pm

...well in the current climate there are likely to be only middle class people with no debts liable to be ordaining in the future. Credit is a fact of life nowadays!

Tony.,..
ashtanga
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: Debts

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:00 pm

Bankrupcy may not be something that happened in the time of the Buddha.
I personally don't know about the implications of this,but will ask my Abbot if he has an answer and will get back at a later time.
With metta,
Phra Greg
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
User avatar
Phra Chuntawongso
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am
Location: Wat SriBoenRuang,Fang,Chiang Mai

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:38 pm

I'm a little out of my league here, but try this:

Undesirable. Applicants falling into the following categories should not be given the Going-forth. As Going-forth is the customary first step in full Acceptance, this means that they should not receive full Acceptance, either. Any bhikkhu who gives any of these applicants the Going-forth incurs a dukkaṭa. However, the applicant does count as having properly gone forth; if fully accepted he is properly accepted and need not be expelled.

<snip>

2-C A debtor. Here the Commentary says that debtor includes one who has inherited debts from his parents or grandparents, as well as one who has incurred debts on his own. If others agree to take on the debts or take over their payment, he may go forth. If Bhikkhu X gives the Going-forth to Y, not knowing that Y has debts but later learning the truth, he should take Y to his creditors if he can get hold of him. If he can't, he is not responsible for the debts. If he feels so inspired, he may undertake to pay off Y's debts if he feels that Y is serious about the practice. But he may not give the Going-forth to Y, knowing of Y's debts beforehand, with the intention of paying them off himself. If he does, he incurs a dukkaṭa.

BMC 2, Chapter 14,


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc2/bmc2.ch14.html

Looks like there are your instructions for clearing up the problem. You need to find someone else to take over the payments for you.
User avatar
andre9999
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US

Re: Debts

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:36 am

ashtanga wrote:I would like to consider ordaining at some juncture. However, I have some debts that although being managed will never be paid off. What are my options? Bancruptcy? :broke:


So you have no assets that can be sold?
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Debts

Postby ashtanga » Sun Jan 09, 2011 12:29 pm

Not enough assets to cover my debt. I worked in IT for nearly two decades that brought with it plenty of money but also plenty of credit. I then changed several years ago to work in social care. I am a Psychologicalo Therapist now, my current salary is what I used to get for a bonus. I managed my debts but they will never get paid off.

Tony...
ashtanga
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: Debts

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:46 pm

Hi Ashtanga

I think the issue with debts is that no-one should make the Sangha a refuge from debt (money owed to others). If you file for bankruptcy your debts will be written off. It will be a good act of renunciation to begin with, before you go for the actual one.

with metta

Matheesha :anjali:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:49 pm

rowyourboat wrote:I think the issue with debts is that no-one should make the Sangha a refuge from debt (money owed to others). If you file for bankruptcy your debts will be written off. It will be a good act of renunciation to begin with, before you go for the actual one.


Written off? Where do you think that debt disappears to?
User avatar
andre9999
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:51 pm

Sorry Matheesha but I dont think UK bankruptcy works that way. Ones debts are seldom written off. The bankrupt person is usually required to pay off an agreed amount in the pound. If they have no no assets then the time will be extended, not waived.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby cooran » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:09 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Ashtanga

I think the issue with debts is that no-one should make the Sangha a refuge from debt (money owed to others). If you file for bankruptcy your debts will be written off. It will be a good act of renunciation to begin with, before you go for the actual one.

with metta

Matheesha :anjali:


Sorry ryb, but this sounds dishonest, not an act of renunciation at all. I would not like to be a businessman, with all the worries of trying to run a business and pay staff, and have the law such that people could just enter voluntary bankruptcy and wipe what is owed to me and my family away. The same goes on a bigger scale.
And if the time as a bhikkhu doesn't end up being a life-time thing, as very often it doesn't, then the OP would have created huge problems for himself in re-entering lay society.

What Renunciation means is Nekkhamma - you may like to read these selections:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... #nekkhamma

Better to save up and do long retreats.

with metta
Chris
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7606
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Debts

Postby householder » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:11 pm

I'm not an insolvency practitioner. But if your debts are a problem, seek professional advice. Some loans do survive bankruptcy by statute, for example. My understanding is that it is not an easy way out and is something that should not be taken lightly.

Do retreats at centres that can accommodate your limited means, or explain your circumstances if you wish to attend a centre which may not seem to on first blush. Your financial situation should not be a hindrance to practice, but unskilfully dealing with your financial situation would, I believe, be a hindrance to your practice.
householder
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:30 pm

Hello, Ashtanga,

have you seen a debt counsellor?

Often a debt counsellor can mediate between the parties and achieve satisfying compromises for both parties.

In all probability the ones you owe money to, banks, etc, will agree to giving up a part of the money voluntarily, if a professional steps in and renegotiates the conditons of a realistic and reasonable compensation that they would have never agreed to if they were dealing with a 'normal mortal'.

That would be a first step, and then you will see with how much debt you are left, and for how long.

I have never heard before that people have to pay until they die.

Compromises and other conditions are always possible.

In one case, that I personally know, a bank wanted to take the house from a woman, because she could not pay the debts off. (Not me)

The whole thing ended up before a judge, and he decided the bank has to offer new conditions, which allowed her to pay her debts off.

Please get help.

After a solution is worked out here, you can reconsider ordaining. :hug:

Good luck!
Last edited by Annapurna on Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Annapurna
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:31 pm

cooran wrote:Sorry ryb, but this sounds dishonest, not an act of renunciation at all. I would not like to be a businessman, with all the worries of trying to run a business and pay staff, and have the law such that people could just enter voluntary bankruptcy and wipe what is owed to me and my family away. The same goes on a bigger scale.
And if the time as a bhikkhu doesn't end up being a life-time thing, as very often it doesn't, then the OP would have created huge problems for himself in re-entering lay society.

What Renunciation means is Nekkhamma - you may like to read these selections:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... #nekkhamma

Better to save up and do long retreats.

with metta
Chris
with metta
Chris

Wait a minute now - bankruptcy is a legal matter, not a moral one. In the US, one has to go through a rigorous legal proceeding to have one's debts legally discharged, and it is up to a judge to determine whether one qualifies and under what bankruptcy code. If the circumstances of someone's life are such that they are unable to meet their debt obligations, bankruptcy is a completely rational choice and there is nothing whatsoever dishonest about it. If a judge finds that someone has incurred debt with the idea, ahead of time, they would discharge it through bankruptcy they can deny the discharge. Again, this is strictly a legal matter. I see no reason why someone seeking ordination without any realistic way to pay off their debt should not investigate bankruptcy.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1758
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:34 pm

I rather think that would come down to the view of the preceptor.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:38 pm

And btw, inheriting debts....in Germany you don't have to accept an inheritance.

If you inherit debts, you can reject it.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Annapurna
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debts

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:41 pm

ashtanga wrote:Not enough assets to cover my debt. I worked in IT for nearly two decades that brought with it plenty of money but also plenty of credit. I then changed several years ago to work in social care. I am a Psychologicalo Therapist now, my current salary is what I used to get for a bonus. I managed my debts but they will never get paid off.

Tony...


I think the answer is if you really want to be a monk then go back and work in IT to pay off your debts, if you aren't happy to do that then you probably don't really want to be a monk, being a Psychological Therapist is probably what you want.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
 
Posts: 1944
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:49 pm

Its just the kind of topic where the input from our Bhikkhu members would be invaluable. .........
PeterB
 
Posts: 3903
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:09 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
ashtanga wrote:Not enough assets to cover my debt. I worked in IT for nearly two decades that brought with it plenty of money but also plenty of credit. I then changed several years ago to work in social care. I am a Psychologicalo Therapist now, my current salary is what I used to get for a bonus. I managed my debts but they will never get paid off.

Tony...


I think the answer is if you really want to be a monk then go back and work in IT to pay off your debts, if you aren't happy to do that then you probably don't really want to be a monk, being a Psychological Therapist is probably what you want.


:?:

Perhaps there are other issues that play a role as well. And I don't think it is so easy so switch, once you've been out IT for a while and a bit older.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Annapurna
 
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Debts

Postby ashtanga » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:23 pm

...this is true. I have been out of IT for too long now. I never had any intentioin on getting ito debt, it was a negative result of embarking on a more compassionate career so late in life. |Maybe I should have stayed in IT making ££££'s but doing little for anyone but large corporations :stirthepot:

I am not in MASSIVE debt but what I owe I manage each month as a 'gesture'. This however, means that it will never be paid off - there's a green dot next to my account which means its in hand lol

I am not being impulsive either. I have been a Buddhist for over 20 years now. My daughter is 17 and ithin a couple of years probable looking to get her own place. Perfect time for me to consider ordination. If I cannot be accepted with the Forest Tradition maybe I will have to look to other more leniant traditions?

Tony...
ashtanga
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:25 pm

Next

Return to Ordination and Monastic Life

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests