YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Debts - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Debts

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
andre9999
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:26 pm


User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:37 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:44 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

User avatar
andre9999
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:56 pm


User avatar
andre9999
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:59 pm

Now somewhat more on topic...

Tony, the option that I took to get my high interest debt under control was to take a debt-consolidation loan from a bank. I was able to get more around 7% instead of the ~15% average I was getting from everything else. These days I bet those bank rates are far better than 7%.

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:59 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
andre9999
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:20 pm

Kirk, I agree with you on most points here.

User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:23 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

User avatar
andre9999
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:33 pm


User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Debts

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:37 pm

This is my opinion.

The rule making one undesirable (but it doesn't invalidate ordination) regarding debts is most likely rooted in political and social context of ancient world in which the Buddha lived in.

In ancient India, there probably weren't humane rules where you could go bankrupt and write-off ALL unsecured debts, and have creditor protection (creditors can't touch you legally, and you are no longer in debt to them). Bankruptcy probably didn't exist back then as it does now. If one were in debt and couldn't pay, one could have become someone's slave, or be assassinated (or tortured) for punishment.

The Buddha probably didn't want creditors to hunt down members of the sangha, and He probably didn't want the laity to view monasticism as an escape from slavery or debts.

Bankruptcy is for the reason to terminate the unsuccessful business and to write-off unsecured debts. Life happens and sometimes you can't pay off borrowed money. Bankruptcy is for that reason. You are no longer in debt (at least after 1 year or so) when you go bankrupt, and could start a new business later on.

One has more possession as a bankrupt person than as a monk. So I don't think that bankruptcy as it is today in western society is equivalent to having debts as it was in ancient society.


Should there be more value placed on paying off debts, or on ordaining (for a valid reason, maggaphala)?

Is one considered to be in debt if one declares bankruptcy and writes-off unsecured debts?

IMHO.



"'I am not anyone's anything anywhere; nor is anything of mine in anyone anywhere." - MN106 TB Translation.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8502
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Debts

Postby cooran » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:56 pm

Pros and Cons of Bankruptcy Filing United States of America:
This provision of filing bankruptcy has been provided as an aid and not as an escape route. One should seek bankruptcy advice from specialist lawyers before filing it. Use the bankruptcy filing option wisely and only under extreme case of emergency, as its has repercussions on everything that you do in the future!
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/bankrupt ... uptcy.html

What consequences are there when filing for bankruptcy in Australia?
http://www.badcreditpersonalloans.com.a ... ences.html

Top ten questions about filing for bankruptcy in England:
http://www.bankrupt.co.uk/bankruptcy-top-ten-faq.htm
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Debts

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:35 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Debts

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:43 am

The moral thing to do is to pay off your debt before you go for ordination. It will provide you with a more stable foundation for future ordination and a return to lay-life should being a bhikkhu not suit you. In the meantime, continue to practice as a lay-person until your financial and family situation changes. I also second Cooran's excellent suggestion of identifying long retreats that maybe suitable for your means. My own tradition (SN Goenka) provides 10-day and longer courses* on a dana-only basis. And I am sure there are other traditions that offer similar 'dana-only' courses. Being a lay-person isn't second rate by any means.

* Long courses are only available to 'old students' who meet the course pre-requisites.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 3476
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Debts

Postby Alex123 » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:15 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

User avatar
torqz
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:27 pm
Location: UK (England).
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby torqz » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:37 pm

I am in a similar situation, I have debts up to my eyeballs of about £20,000 :-(

Does anyone have any good, ethical ideas about how to make some HARD CASH?!
May the triple gem bless bless you, may you quickly realize the 4 noble truths in this Gautama Buddhas dispensation... Sādhu! Sādhu! Sādhu!

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Debts

Postby Ben » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:20 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

User avatar
Viscid
Posts: 930
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby Viscid » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:22 pm

"What holds attention determines action." - William James

User avatar
andre9999
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:31 pm


User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:33 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

ashtanga
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: Debts

Postby ashtanga » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:19 pm

I have to say as the original poster here i am shocked at recent posts. whats with this 'get a job' attitude??? How remarabley opinionated! I can only gather you mumble that when walking past 'beggars' on the street too?!

Many of us are in debt not through choice, but as a result of divorce, career changes etc. If we decide that we would like to make a change to a more dedicated life to the Dhamma then I would hope that we would be better recieved with a more 'compassionate' attitude than 'get a job'...!

You should be ashamed of yourselves!

Look again at your practice!


Return to “Ordination and Monastic Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine