Debts

[cooran]

Hello Ashtanga,

Why not consider becoming/staying a Novice – a saama.nera? This would provide a taste of what it is like to be a bhikkhu, gives many benefits and you don’t have to go further and become a Bhikkhu.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#novice

with metta
Chris

[mlswe]

.

[rowyourboat]

There is a sutta where Ven Sariputta asks the Buddha why some businessmen never make money however hard they try while others do. The Buddha replies it is due to their past karma. IMO some of these 'bad karma' can be a blessing- why not try something which doesnt require you to earn HARD CASH. While such an attitude maybe frowned upon by the christian work ethic of the west, kaya and citta viveka, resting of the mind and body is praised by the Buddha as conducive to your practice.

with metta

Matheesha

[Annapurna]

Difficult one Tony ....Is it possible to sit down with those you are in debt to and point out that the possibility of bankruptcy is on the horizon and draw up a mutual agreement of a manageable amount for you to pay of .

I suggested that earlier, only with a debt counselor present, since they usually achieve more than a normal indebted individual.

Often, people are willing to give up a little bit, if that brings them closer to getting the rest.

[Alex123]

Was usury allowed during the time of the Buddha and if not what implications does that have on the codes applications in our times?

In ancient world you could become a slave. Some angry people could also hire assassins to take you out. The Buddha may have imposed "no-debt" rule so that angry creditors would not hunt down new members of the sangha, and for political purposes.

I wonder if bankruptcy, as it is today in western world, was in existence in those times when the Buddha was making rules.

[Goofaholix]

In ancient world you could become a slave. Some angry people could also hire assassins to take you out. The Buddha may have imposed "no-debt" rule so that angry creditors would not hunt down new members of the sangha, and for political purposes.

I wonder if bankruptcy, as it is today in western world, was in existence in those times when the Buddha was making rules.

I assume he didn't want the monastic sangha to be a place people run to to escape from their debts, the same reason that wanted criminals are not allowed to be ordained (presumably until after they've paid their debt to society).

[Alex123]

I assume he didn't want the monastic sangha to be a place people run to to escape from their debts, the same reason that wanted criminals are not allowed to be ordained (presumably until after they've paid their debt to society).

And when one declares bankruptcy, one can write-off unsecured debts.


BTW, what if the person has a mortgage (house)? Most mortgages may take 20-30+ years to be paid off. What about foreclosing it?

[andre9999]

I assume he didn't want the monastic sangha to be a place people run to to escape from their debts, the same reason that wanted criminals are not allowed to be ordained (presumably until after they've paid their debt to society).

And when one declares bankruptcy, one can write-off unsecured debts.


BTW, what if the person has a mortgage (house)? Most mortgages may take 20-30+ years to be paid off. What about foreclosing it?

This is easily one of the strangest discussions I've ever had. Sell the house would be ideal, but foreclosure isn't the same at all since the lender has the deed and all the money paid so far.

You seem to frequently use the term "write-off", but what does it mean? Where does the debt go?

[Alex123]

This is easily one of the strangest discussions I've ever had. Sell the house would be ideal, but foreclosure isn't the same at all since the lender has the deed and all the money paid so far.

What if the house IN THIS MARKET (post 2008) can be sold only at $100K below the mortgage? What will one do with $100K debt incurred as a result of selling the house?

You seem to love the term "write-off", but what does it mean? Where does the debt go?

Its all "fake" (from real, tangible asset perspective) money anyways. Where do numbers go? It is not like one takes someone's real property (like gold, land, cattle) and doesn't give it back. Numbers are numbers. Intangible.

When debt is written-off, it is no longer debt. And in any case the "debt" here would be numbers stored electronically in a bank account. It is not debt as tangible possession, like that in Buddha's time.

Even paper money is just agreed on convention. You can't actually use it for much other than maybe as a toilet paper or something to burn to keep you warm...
The government, as we've seen, can print out the money. So I am not concerned about that.

[andre9999]

No need to continue because we have no common ground around which we can have a discussion.

[Alex123]

No need to continue because we have no common ground around which we can have a discussion.

What common ground?


In any case, returning tangible things is one thing - with which I agree. As one ordains, one can't keep it anyways.

Trying to return "agreed upon conventions, numbers", especially when it can't realistically be done, is another. I don't agree here. In today's world it is too easy to accumulate this and the interest alone can force one to work all one's life. It seems that some try to get as many people as possible in this type of slavery (mortgage, something that you pay till death). This may not have been, what is called "debt", in the Buddha's time.

[octathlon]

Just now reading this thread, which seems to have become a discussion on whether the requirement of paying off debts before ordination is good or bad. Well, the reasons for the rule are good ones, as has been pointed out. Looking at this from a Buddhist perspective, I would say that even if you could declare bankruptcy and then ordain, what would your chances of success be?

Striving to pay off the debt in order to be able to ordain would show dedication, right intention and right effort. If for whatever reasons, it is not possible to pay off the debts in this lifetime, then perhaps readiness for ordination is not the case in this lifetime. On the other hand, once the right intention and effort is sincerely applied, who knows what positive fruits this may bear, perhaps even allowing the debt to be paid off after all. But the point is not to try and get out of paying it, but that wholesome actions are taken even if the goal can't be reached, rather than choosing unwholesome actions hoping to reach a wholesome goal.

[Alex123]

Looking at this from a Buddhist perspective, I would say that even if you could declare bankruptcy and then ordain, what would your chances of success be?

Angulimala killed 999 people. Imagine the "debt" he had. I don't think he had to repay it, or make up for it, prior to ordination. Yet he became an Arahant.

Striving to pay off the debt in order to be able to ordain would show dedication, right intention and right effort. If for whatever reasons, it is not possible to pay off the debts in this lifetime, then perhaps readiness for ordination is not the case in this lifetime.

What if one could be even a quarter as good as Angulimala by ordaining, even with lots of debt outstanding?

Speaking about lifetimes, imagine the accumulated debt over many lives. It may never be paid off. But IMHO a good paying off the debts by becoming Aryan is much greater than bigger numbers in electronic bank account.

[cooran]

Just now reading this thread, which seems to have become a discussion on whether the requirement of paying off debts before ordination is good or bad. Well, the reasons for the rule are good ones, as has been pointed out. Looking at this from a Buddhist perspective, I would say that even if you could declare bankruptcy and then ordain, what would your chances of success be?

Striving to pay off the debt in order to be able to ordain would show dedication, right intention and right effort. If for whatever reasons, it is not possible to pay off the debts in this lifetime, then perhaps readiness for ordination is not the case in this lifetime. On the other hand, once the right intention and effort is sincerely applied, who knows what positive fruits this may bear, perhaps even allowing the debt to be paid off after all. But the point is not to try and get out of paying it, but that wholesome actions are taken even if the goal can't be reached, rather than choosing unwholesome actions hoping to reach a wholesome goal.

Sadhu! Well said.

with metta
Chris

[Goofaholix]

Just now reading this thread, which seems to have become a discussion on whether the requirement of paying off debts before ordination is good or bad. Well, the reasons for the rule are good ones, as has been pointed out. Looking at this from a Buddhist perspective, I would say that even if you could declare bankruptcy and then ordain, what would your chances of success be?

Striving to pay off the debt in order to be able to ordain would show dedication, right intention and right effort. If for whatever reasons, it is not possible to pay off the debts in this lifetime, then perhaps readiness for ordination is not the case in this lifetime. On the other hand, once the right intention and effort is sincerely applied, who knows what positive fruits this may bear, perhaps even allowing the debt to be paid off after all. But the point is not to try and get out of paying it, but that wholesome actions are taken even if the goal can't be reached, rather than choosing unwholesome actions hoping to reach a wholesome goal.

Very well said.

If you don't have a clear concience when you ordain then you can hardly expect the fruits of the holy life,

[PeterB]

Thirded...well said.

[Annapurna]

Just now reading this thread, which seems to have become a discussion on whether the requirement of paying off debts before ordination is good or bad. Well, the reasons for the rule are good ones, as has been pointed out. Looking at this from a Buddhist perspective, I would say that even if you could declare bankruptcy and then ordain, what would your chances of success be?

Striving to pay off the debt in order to be able to ordain would show dedication, right intention and right effort. If for whatever reasons, it is not possible to pay off the debts in this lifetime, then perhaps readiness for ordination is not the case in this lifetime. On the other hand, once the right intention and effort is sincerely applied, who knows what positive fruits this may bear, perhaps even allowing the debt to be paid off after all. But the point is not to try and get out of paying it, but that wholesome actions are taken even if the goal can't be reached, rather than choosing unwholesome actions hoping to reach a wholesome goal.

Very well said.

If you don't have a clear concience when you ordain then you can hardly expect the fruits of the holy life,

Then someone who killed can not ordain?

[cooran]

Not unless you are someone as fortunate as Angulimala who met the Buddha.
A one-of-a-kind decision was made by the Buddha to ordain him.

Otherwise, the rule is:
...anyone wishing to become a bhikkhu must fulfill certain conditions about which he will be questioned during the actual ordination procedure. The candidate must be male and at least twenty years old. He must never have committed any grievous crimes and, if previously ordained, he must not have been guilty of any Defeater (Paaraajika) offences or have entered some other religion without disrobing first. (See BMC pp.88-89) He should also be of good reputation; fit and healthy enough to carry out the duties of a bhikkhu; not in debt; not subject to government service; and have permission from parents or guardian.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#bhikkhu

with metta
Chris

[Annapurna]

What is meant by "permission of parents"?

If someone is above 21, does he still need it?

[cooran]

Depends on the Tradition:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=6031&p=94711