Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hello Cooran, all,

cooran wrote:Not unless you are someone as fortunate as Angulimala who met the Buddha. A one-of-a-kind decision was made by the Buddha to ordain him.
with metta
Chris

Angulimala killed 999 people, not just one. Sure, he met the Buddha (an extraordinary event), and despite his murder spree, had many positive qualities himself that allowed him to become Arhat. But none of us have killed even 1 person, let alone 999.

Incurring monetary debt as result of outside forces (such as bad economy, bad partners, and general worldly requirements such as university, mortgages, debts inherited from someone else, etc) imho is much less than killing even 1 person, nothing to say about killing 999.

It seems that western society is built in such a way that it gives us a lot of debt.

But murder is different. Sure we may not have such good qualities as Angulimala had, and we didn't meet the Buddha in this life. But we didn't kill one, let alone 999 people

Alex123 wrote: But none of us have killed even 1 person, let alone 999.....we didn't kill one, let alone 999 people

How would you know if anybody in this forum has or hasn't killed before?

You are assuming.

Incurring monetary debt as result of outside forces (such as... debts inherited from someone else, etc) imho is much less than killing even 1 person, nothing to say about killing 999.

I will be happy to say it again that nobody has to inherit debt


>>>Inheriting debt

...sorry I started this thread but it does seem to have become popular...funny that. If its was as definitive an answer as some seem to think on here why so much discussion. Someone mentioned that it might not be the right time to ordain if debts cannot be paid off and to wait for another incarnation...am in a Buddhist forum here or on a hill in Glastonbury surrounded by smoke...WHAT?

I am honestly shocked at the some of the contents in this thread... It might as well be the other way round and you can't ordain UNLESS you have tonnes of money...ridiculous to assume that if its demontrable that a debt cannot be paid off then writing ot off is an option. Now, for those who say 'where did it go'... ask yourself this...WHERE DID IT COME FROM'...?

Anwyay, I'm not going to contribute anymore to this thread as its just winding me up .... rather meditate.

Have fun!

ashtanga wrote:Now, for those who say 'where did it go'... ask yourself this...WHERE DID IT COME FROM'...?

Why are you asking us? It's your debt.

ashtanga wrote: Someone mentioned that it might not be the right time to ordain if debts cannot be paid off and to wait for another incarnation...am in a Buddhist forum here or on a hill in Glastonbury surrounded by smoke...WHAT?

Just to be clear, I did say the first part but I never said "wait for another incarnation". It's a silly idea to "wait for another incarnation" do to anything. All we have is now. We should follow the N8P right now.

To ordain just to escape debt is wrong. But one doesn't have to ordain to escape unsecured debt. One can write-it-off by bankruptcy.

But to ordain in order to live holy life to the perfection, that is really good. To hold person away from such, is very wrong, IMHO.

Modern life almost requires that one accumulates debt, and it is almost impossible to be without debt in the modern western world. In the economic downturn, it is too easy to have debt above what can be paid in reasonable time. Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.


Being in debt is not itself a disqualifier. Just how much debt was Angulimala in? He killed 999 people! The monetary, and most importantly other kind of debt, was really big. He ordained and become an Arahant. It would be terrible if he didn't ordain, (in order to pay off debt and make up to the victim's families), and remain a worldling...

Alex123 wrote:To ordain just to escape debt is wrong. But one doesn't have to ordain to escape unsecured debt. One can write-it-off by bankruptcy.

But to ordain in order to live holy life to the perfection, that is really good. To hold person away from such, is very wrong, IMHO.

Modern life almost requires that one accumulates debt, and it is almost impossible to be without debt in the modern western world. In the economic downturn, it is too easy to have debt above what can be paid in reasonable time. Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.


Being in debt is not itself a disqualifier. Just how much debt was Angulimala in? He killed 999 people! The monetary, and most importantly other kind of debt, was really big. He ordained and become an Arahant. It would be terrible if he didn't ordain, (in order to pay off debt and make up to the victim's families), and remain a worldling...

Sila should be abandoned, if it is a hindrance to developing samadhi. Samadhi should be abandoned if it becomes a hindrance to developing panna. None of these practices, however wholesome in themselves, should not become ends in themselves, blocking further progress.

Please see the 'Relay of chariots' sutta.

With metta

Alex123 wrote: Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.

Right on!

rowyourboat wrote:Sila should be abandoned, if it is a hindrance to developing samadhi. Samadhi should be abandoned if it becomes a hindrance to developing panna. None of these practices, however wholesome in themselves, should not become ends in themselves, blocking further progress.

Please see the 'Relay of chariots' sutta.

With metta

Crazy wisdom! (just kidding. I think this is a really interesting point)

We can agree and applaud all we like. However when push comes to shove its Ashtangas ( in this case ) preceptor that will decide, and they traditionally take a conservative view. They may even (horrors ) not regard the views put forward on this forum !

If someone in Ashtangas present position gets ordained in a mainstream Theravadin Sangha I will download and eat this page.

PeterB wrote:We can agree and applaud all we like. However when push comes to shove its Ashtangas ( in this case ) preceptor that will decide, and they traditionally take a conservative view. They may even (horrors ) not regard the views put forward on this forum !

If someone in Ashtangas present position gets ordained in a mainstream Theravadin Sangha I will download and eat this page.

You're right the preceptor will decide, of course. But maybe print out this page just in case. But actually we aren't talking about someone in Ashtangas present position, but a position after debts have been canceled through bankruptcy.

Debt is hardly ever cancelled by bankruptcy. Almost always an accomodation is reached wherewith debt is eventually discharged..That is the point of bankruptcy.

PeterB wrote:Debt is hardly ever cancelled by bankruptcy. Almost always an accomodation is reached wherewith debt is eventually discharged..That is the point of bankruptcy.

K. Are you a bankruptcy lawyer that you can make these claims? I just observed a friend, in detail, go through Chapter 7 bankruptcy (this is US). The dischargeable debt was wiped out. Gone. Government student loans in the US though, are not dischargeable. Chapter 13 involves a repayment plan.