Vinaya rules

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Vinaya rules

Postby Future Bhikkhu » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:06 am

I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?
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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:57 am

Greetings,

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?

Given the different number of rules that exist in different Buddhist ordination lineages, I suspect the latter is more likely. Bear in mind though that the Sangha never asked which 'minor rules' could be abandoned, so there are some that even prevailed at the time of the Buddha, which he would not necessarily decree for use in the 21st century.

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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:32 am

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was wondering if all the rules for a Bhikkhu were created in the time of the Buddha or were some created alter on?


Most (maybe all) of the rules in the Theravadin Vinaya contain an explanation on how the rule came to be, usually a monk did something unbecoming of a monk and he Buddha made a rule there and then. So it appears the Theravadin Vinaya is something that was established while the Buddha was alive.

See http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... guide.html for a guide.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:14 am

Greetings Goofaholix,

Goofaholix wrote:Most (maybe all) of the rules in the Theravadin Vinaya contain an explanation on how the rule came to be, usually a monk did something unbecoming of a monk and he Buddha made a rule there and then. So it appears the Theravadin Vinaya is something that was established while the Buddha was alive.

Bear in mind that the explanations themselves may have been "created later on" and retrofitted... much like the explanations behind how the Dhammapada verses came to be.

I'm not claiming that it is so... just providing a heads-up on something to be mindful of.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:Bear in mind that the explanations themselves may have been "created later on" and retrofitted... much like the explanations behind how the Dhammapada verses came to be.

I'm not claiming that it is so... just providing a heads-up on something to be mindful of.


So the age/authenticity of the vinaya is not like the nikayas? more like the commentaries? Thanks for the clarification.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:22 am

Greetings Goof,

Goofaholix wrote:So the age/authenticity of the vinaya is not like the nikayas? more like the commentaries? Thanks for the clarification.

What I mean is that the Vinaya has commentary, much like the Sutta has commentary. The explanatory stories behind the Dhammapada verses are commentary, so the explanatory stories behind the Vinaya rules may or may not be commentary... I don't know. Maybe someone more au fait with the Vinaya could confirm either way.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Vinaya rules

Postby Euclid » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:56 am

Because this thread seems as good a place as any to ask: is there anything in the vinaya specifically preventing the Sangha from adding new rules to the patimokkha?
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