Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was interested in hearing why you do not ordain. I know that many of you are well versed and practiced but if you know that life is full of suffering, why do you not strive to end that suffering with the most effective way possible? All opinons are valid.

I enjoy meditation very much and I enjoy reading the suttas very much. I don't think I would become a monk because:

- I'm strongly agnostic about it being possible for someone to actually be an arahant

- I don't believe is some significant parts of Buddhism: rebirth, kamma ( beyond cause and effect ), etc

- I don't want to give up having romantic and sexual relationships with women

- I don't want to give up my independence in being able to earn my own money,take care of myself and make some of my own choices in regards to lifestyle.

Jhana4 wrote:

Future Bhikkhu wrote:I was interested in hearing why you do not ordain. I know that many of you are well versed and practiced but if you know that life is full of suffering, why do you not strive to end that suffering with the most effective way possible? All opinons are valid.

I enjoy meditation very much and I enjoy reading the suttas very much. I don't think I would become a monk because:

- I'm strongly agnostic about it being possible for someone to actually be an arahant

- I don't believe is some significant parts of Buddhism: rebirth, kamma ( beyond cause and effect ), etc

- I don't want to give up having romantic and sexual relationships with women

- I don't want to give up my independence in being able to earn my own money,take care of myself and make some of my own choices in regards to lifestyle.

It is great to be established in meditation, and to penetrate the truths in the suttas, and it's perfectly understandable where you are with regards to becoming a monk.

Skepticism about becoming an arahant and doubts about rebirth & Kamma(both concepts which often can be easily misunderstood and colored?) are still doubts, and among the 5 hindrances, doubt and lust(sexually) are but 2 of them.
Not that I am advocating blind faith, but more so, I hope that you will find a mentor that will be able to guide you to penetrate those truths, experience them yourself, and remove those doubts as part of 'progress' on the path of Dhamma.

With arahants, there are quite a few distinctions between each of their attainment fruits, and ways of attaining Nibbana. Most common thing they share among all of them thou is their attainment, which is termed the nibbana element with a residue remaining(due to still being alive with 5 aggregates still active).

As with Kamma, there really is not anything more than cause and effect I think. It is more important to observe how our whole 'reality' and world system function in accordance to the cycle of cause and effect.

Could passion be one of the strongest attachment and craving in the sense desire world? From my understanding, 3 realms of existence too, sense desire world, form world, formless worlds. The latter two each corresponding to development in meditation.

Independence or interdependence? =D Contemplate identity view, and Anatta(non-self?)? To choose to ordain is to choose a lifestyle, as you have already chosen yours too. No right or wrong, as to live is to walk the Dhamma path, only 'difference' is walking it more or less consciously?

Flux;

Thanks for the non-judgmental and supportive post.

Anyone considering such a dramatic move as ordaining as a Buddhist monk and asking themselves the questions "Why not ordain?" should read the related thread about the book called "The Broken Buddha" by the Venerable S. Dhammika. This link goes to that thread ( which has links in it to the PDF version of the book ) rather than the book.

Jhana4 wrote:Anyone considering such a dramatic move as ordaining as a Buddhist monk and asking themselves the questions "Why not ordain?" should read the related thread about the book called "The Broken Buddha" by the Venerable S. Dhammika. This link goes to that thread ( which has links in it to the PDF version of the book ) rather than the book.

I remember reading it. In any case, I think that there are good and not so good monasteries. I don't think that every monastery is like the Ven. Dhammika has described. I understand that some people are not ready, and some may ordain for less than perfect reasons.

But I do hope that a diligent practitioner can quietly practice without getting into the politics and so on.

I may need to read that article again as the issue of ordination weighs heavily on my mind (I hope eventually to ordain and be a good bhikkhu).

Its not an article, it is a book ( 66 pages ), but one well worth reading even with the understanding that Ven Dhammika's experiences described there are a decade old and that they might not reflect every experience that could be had.

The reasons for getting ordained would be to have your basic needs met while getting support for

- meditating at least 4 hours a day during prime hours
- support for very long retreats
- support for studying the suttas
- support for living in an ethical way, by your own ethics in addition to the sanghas
- being around meditation teachers and people striving for the same things you are

A single person could probably manage their commitments to work a job, get 2 hours of meditation in a day during the week, more on the weekend and a 1-2 retreats a year. So, if someone isn't getting the list of things above from a Sangha it probably wouldn't be worth it to become a monk.

I ordained for about a year in NE Thailand. I was 20 and immature. The hardest part, and I think this is crucial, was that I lacked the ability to really navigate my way through my problems. An example of this is when one meditates for a long period of time, a sense of loneliness can arise making one think, "Is this all my life's going to be? Just walking back and forth of this meditation path here?" Well, when I was younger, I was unable to really reflect on whether this was a valid feeling or not. So I'd go back to the "fun" of the monastery- the conversations and cheese, and feel the resulting discordance from that. I'd go days meditating, but I would always be pulled off track by my feelings of social obligations etc... Without a practice to live for, I ended up disrobing.

So I've spent the past 5 years learning to reflect on these things. I always had in mind the idea that I just need some time before I can ordain again. I think that time is close.

So anyways, great to find this forum, Sadhu to the community here who strives to follow the Buddhist teachings. May you all develop quickly and gain solid ground on the path!

Basileaux wrote:I ordained for about a year in NE Thailand. I was 20 and immature. The hardest part, and I think this is crucial, was that I lacked the ability to really navigate my way through my problems. An example of this is when one meditates for a long period of time, a sense of loneliness can arise making one think, "Is this all my life's going to be? Just walking back and forth of this meditation path here?" Well, when I was younger, I was unable to really reflect on whether this was a valid feeling or not. So I'd go back to the "fun" of the monastery- the conversations and cheese, and feel the resulting discordance from that. I'd go days meditating, but I would always be pulled off track by my feelings of social obligations etc... Without a practice to live for, I ended up disrobing.

So I've spent the past 5 years learning to reflect on these things. I always had in mind the idea that I just need some time before I can ordain again. I think that time is close.

So anyways, great to find this forum, Sadhu to the community here who strives to follow the Buddhist teachings. May you all develop quickly and gain solid ground on the path!

Basileaux;

I thought you showed a lot of advanced judgment. 20 is a young age to turn away from life. The only life we are certain about is this one. All else is religion.

The whole point in ordaining would be to meditate a lot more and get more support for it. Those things weren't happening so your decision to disrobe was a smart one.


Welcome to the forum and thank you for your interesting account.

Jhana4 wrote:The only life we are certain about is this one. All else is religion.

This one is the only life to cling to right now. And for those who feel aversion when the thought "religion" arises "religion" may be an appropriate term to do away with much that is disliked (i.e. there is an uncomfortable feeling involved).

Kind regards

Jhana4 wrote:20 is a young age to turn away from life.

I don't see it as turning away from life, but embracing life in a different and simpler way. If you're inclined to a monastic life: the sooner you do it, the better imho. There is a much bigger chance in reaching nibbana if you start early in your life than if you start late. Most people also don't have other responsibilities yet.

Ytrog wrote:

Jhana4 wrote:20 is a young age to turn away from life.

I don't see it as turning away from life, but embracing life in a different and simpler way. If you're inclined to a monastic life: the sooner you do it, the better imho. There is a much bigger chance in reaching nibbana if you start early in your life than if you start late. Most people also don't have other responsibilities yet.

This is correct.

Ytrog wrote:

Jhana4 wrote:20 is a young age to turn away from life.

I don't see it as turning away from life, but embracing life in a different and simpler way. If you're inclined to a monastic life: the sooner you do it, the better imho. There is a much bigger chance in reaching nibbana if you start early in your life than if you start late. Most people also don't have other responsibilities yet.

I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.

Jhana4 wrote:

Ytrog wrote:

Jhana4 wrote:20 is a young age to turn away from life.

I don't see it as turning away from life, but embracing life in a different and simpler way. If you're inclined to a monastic life: the sooner you do it, the better imho. There is a much bigger chance in reaching nibbana if you start early in your life than if you start late. Most people also don't have other responsibilities yet.

I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.

I don't want to put you on the spot, but what do you think of Ven. Gunaratana?

I only met him once. I think he is an extraordinarily intelligent man with good character. I have no idea what his internal life is or has been.

Jhana4 wrote:I don't think a person could fully understand the dhamma, without an understanding about what s/he left behind and I think experience is necessary for that kind of understanding.

A smart man learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from others.