Should sex be demonized so much?

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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:25 am

I've followed this thread with interest, as I do quite a lot of them. I was particularly interested at the notion that sexual interest/performance drops off with age. My father, at age 65, was living with a 30 year old woman and from what I understand their intimate life was both vigorous and frequent. I'm 52, almost 53 and if there's a willing female handy, I'm more capable now than when I was 30. But the biological clock of the males in my family runs slow; according to my doctor I have a physiological age of 37, and I take very good care of myself. I also really enjoy sex and don't see it as harmful, an object of aversion, or a distraction from anything. Nor do I obsess about it one way or the other. It's one of many things I do that I enjoy, like playing the piano, savoring a cup of strong coffee, reading a good book, playing with my cat, watching a great opera. If sex is a hindrance than so are all of these others. I might as well strip the branches of all the leaves and live a bleak existence.

This one thing however, involves another human being so it involves being compassionate, considerate and empathetic. In other words, making a human-to-human connection, which may be what I missed in this discussion. Most of the conversation in this thread has been about the sexual act, not about what it means when two people come together for the purpose of sexual intercourse.

In my opinion it isn't just about procreation or the release of tension. If it isn't fun, affectionate and friendly it ain't worth the trouble. Even dogs can copulate. In the biggest sense of the word, it's very cold outside, and making love is one way to build a cozy fire against the chill and proclaim "Hey--I'm alive, and isn't it grand?"

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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:34 am

not about what it means when two people come together for the purpose of sexual intercourse

So what is the means that you talk about? Would you say that it is really that different to dogs? And if yes, why?

"Hey--I'm alive, and isn't it grand?"
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby Dan74 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:35 am

BubbaBuddhist wrote:I've followed this thread with interest, as I do quite a lot of them. I was particularly interested at the notion that sexual interest/performance drops off with age. My father, at age 65, was living with a 30 year old woman and from what I understand their intimate life was both vigorous and frequent. I'm 52, almost 53 and if there's a willing female handy, I'm more capable now than when I was 30. But the biological clock of the males in my family runs slow; according to my doctor I have a physiological age of 37, and I take very good care of myself. I also really enjoy sex and don't see it as harmful, an object of aversion, or a distraction from anything. Nor do I obsess about it one way or the other. It's one of many things I do that I enjoy, like playing the piano, savoring a cup of strong coffee, reading a good book, playing with my cat, watching a great opera. If sex is a hindrance than so are all of these others. I might as well strip the branches of all the leaves and live a bleak existence.

This one thing however, involves another human being so it involves being compassionate, considerate and empathetic. In other words, making a human-to-human connection, which may be what I missed in this discussion. Most of the conversation in this thread has been about the sexual act, not about what it means when two people come together for the purpose of sexual intercourse.

In my opinion it isn't just about procreation or the release of tension. If it isn't fun, affectionate and friendly it ain't worth the trouble. Even dogs can copulate. In the biggest sense of the word, it's very cold outside, and making love is one way to build a cozy fire against the chill and proclaim "Hey--I'm alive, and isn't it grand?"

BB
Unabashed Libertine since the 1970s


:goodpost:

My sense is that without a healthy attitude like this, sex cannot be truly transcended. Instead what one would be trying to transcend is all sorts of projections, aversions and fears, never knowing what a healthy sexual relationship is in the first place. An exercise in chasing away ghosts which ultimately futile and will leave the root of sensuality untouched and possible muddied by all sorts of negativity.

And whether at some point your attitude will change or not is just a matter for your practice. Sex, like anything else, should be seen with clarity for what it is. I guess as practice deepens, so does this seeing and this is where a change can take place. Rather than preconceived notions.
Last edited by Dan74 on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:36 am

My sense is that without a healthy attitude like this, sex cannot be truly transcended.

What should be transcended?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby Dan74 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:44 am

Hanzze wrote:
My sense is that without a healthy attitude like this, sex cannot be truly transcended.

What should be transcended?


abandoned, let gone of, seen through as unwholesome - choose your favourite vocab.
_/|\_
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:52 am

Dan74 wrote:
Hanzze wrote:
My sense is that without a healthy attitude like this, sex cannot be truly transcended.

What should be transcended?


abandoned, let gone of, seen through as unwholesome - choose your favourite vocab.
I guess most of us would need many livetimes to do so. Its not so easy to remember past - livetimes, consciousnesses - and understand kamma fully while being in the middle of the stream. Of course as long as we can not say "thats enough", as long as we have had enough, we will try it another time. What about the way of conviction (out of other things we already can addopt) even if there is some doubt in one or the other regard, wouldn't it be more secure, wouldn't if slow down the stream?

Sometimes it seems that there is a strange idea, that it is needed to be enlighen/awake, before someone is able to walk this way to awakening. Seems to be very have forlorn , doesn't it?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:28 pm

It just seems to me that you can still walk the path while holding hands with a friendly companion. And occasionally take a detour from the path to sneak off behind the trees for a little giggly fun.

Sometimes I feel like I'm doing Buddhism wrong. I practice yet I still enjoy life. :tongue:

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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:32 pm

Image does it help?

But better and more secure to remember the noble Sangha to develope right view ( as: no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves, is an aspect of wrong view and not useful to develope the path) and take it as a inspiration that things are possible and have been done by the wise (in the past, present and also in the future).
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:38 am

The good Hanzze asks:
So what is the means that you talk about? Would you say that it is really that different to dogs? And if yes, why?


One big difference is that dogs have to fight for it. If I had to fight for it, I would be the fifty-year-old virgin. :embarassed:

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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby Hanzze » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:02 am

BubbaBuddhist wrote:The good Hanzze asks:
So what is the means that you talk about? Would you say that it is really that different to dogs? And if yes, why?


One big difference is that dogs have to fight for it. If I had to fight for it, I would be the fifty-year-old virgin. :embarassed:

BB
Lover, not a fighter.

Thanks that there is money. Maybe you think one more time about it if you had fight for it or not.

By the way, there are also amoung dogs relations which happen without fight. But there would be for sure no killing on earth if there would be no desire for sex. Its just that sometimes we have a lot of past merits that we think such things come by there own without the need to take.

Lover, not a fighter.

Its better to use merits for gaining more as to waste them. You might need to fight later again and wonder why others do not need.
Places where live and its ways are not that covered by illusion there is a common proverb: "No money, no honey" but also "Not being a honey, no money" ;) supply and demand

Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby convivium » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:50 pm

i didn't realize sex was demonized, even in 'renunciate' buddhism. it's certainly not encouraged (except maybe in certain tantric practices, but that's a different thing altogether). the reason for not encouraging sex is that tanha causes suffering, and sexual desire is probably the deepest form of tanha (if you think you can have sex without desire, then try going without it for a while). i think to say it's not easy to renounce things like sex would be a gross understatement for most people. we take it as a source of release, pleasure, inspiration (however consciously), which leads to suffering (even if we aren't aware of it).
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby manas » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:21 pm

convivium wrote:i didn't realize sex was demonized, even in 'renunciate' buddhism. it's certainly not encouraged (except maybe in certain tantric practices, but that's a different thing altogether). the reason for not encouraging sex is that tanha causes suffering, and sexual desire is probably the deepest form of tanha (if you think you can have sex withut desire, then try going without it for a while). i think to say it's not easy to renounce things like sex would be a gross understatement for most people. we take it as a source of release, pleasure, inspiration (however consciously), which leads to suffering (even if we aren't aware of it).


Hi convivium,

I had forgotten about this old topic I'd once posted. I thank you for your interest, however, at the time that I wrote the original post, I didn't see things clearly enough to entitle it rightly. I don't think sex is 'demonized' in Buddhism. It's just plainly called out for what it is: one of the single biggest chains that bind us to dukkha. But, the Buddha was not fanatical. He allows his lay followers to indulge in it, with a few restrictions, it's only monastics who must totally abstain, for obvious reasons.
:anjali:
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Re: Should sex be demonized so much?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:36 pm

Topic closed at OP's request.

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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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