no sleep at all?

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no sleep at all?

Postby purple planet » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:23 pm

not saying i will try this but just checking

when you meditate a lot you dont feel sleepiy at all - i know there are monks who never sleep

my question is : "is it healthy not to sleep and just meditate ? "

(a word against it might be that the buddha said monks should sleep 4 hours a night (no more then 4 ? ) - and for it is the fact that there are monks who dont sleep at all and that meditation can take sleepiness away completely)
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby Babadhari » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:27 pm

purple planet wrote: - i know there are monks who never sleep



hi purple planet
do you know this for a fact?
by never sleep i assume you mean for a period of years.....

when you meditate a lot you dont feel sleepiy at all


i think you'll find if you meditate for many hours of the day though you may not sleep at night, youwill certainly begin to feel sleepy at times during meditation

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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby purple planet » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:56 pm

do you know this for a fact?
by never sleep i assume you mean for a period of years.....


Dont want the thread to go to the lines of what monks are they and what tradition ect ... but i will answer that i did hear it dont remember where that they vow not to lay down and im pretty sure its for years - but even if im wrong about this which i could be - i would like to understand why i cant do it - and maybe lay down for short periods of time without sleeping to allow the back to rest and not strain itself

i think you'll find if you meditate for many hours of the day though you may not sleep at night, you will certainly begin to feel sleepy at times during meditation


I meditated with 1 day 4 hour sleep and after that another 3 nights without sleeping and i didnt feel tired at all may in this whole time fell asleep for 20 minutes in one meditation ,all the meditations i set straight and not leaning to any side (meditated all day with small breaks ) - i dont know what will happen if i will try it for a longer period - but if its ok health wise i see no reason not to do it

I think its possible the question is - is it healthy ?
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby daverupa » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:20 pm

purple planet wrote:
I think its possible the question is - is it healthy ?


Probably not. But why make the attempt in the first place? What is the benefit that you anticipate?

It seems like an overly-taut vina string.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby Mkoll » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:28 pm

Are you saying you didn't sleep for three nights in a row?

Search "sleep deprivation" or check out wikipedia to learn the deleterious effects of not getting enough sleep.

I imagine that if there are meditators who actually don't sleep, they are incredibly advanced in their practice. I wouldn't try to emulate them.

But hey, if you can meditate for 24 hours a day and you know you're not going insane or hallucinating, go ahead.

Please note this is not medical advice and you should see a trained medical professional if you're going to do stuff like this.
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby purple planet » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:30 pm

Probably not. But why make the attempt in the first place? What is the benefit that you anticipate?


time , but it was very easy to do- i didnt try not to sleep its just the meditation takes the sleepiness all out

It seems like an overly-taut vina string.
thought of this - but if its so easy for me (and im sure others cause im a sleepy kind of person and also unlike it might seem from this thread a beginner ) than it might be a too loose vina string
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby Alobha » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:43 pm

purple planet wrote:my question is : "is it healthy not to sleep and just meditate ? "


Well, i doubt there are studies on that. However, there have been studies on sleepdeprivation on volunteers in the past where people didn't sleep for ~ 72 hours or more. People didn't die or suffer any longterm consequences from it, but you know the usual effects of sleep deprivation: deficits in attention and generally concentrating, concentrating on complex issues gets difficult, learning and memory can be hindered (sleep is important for learning), motoric abilities may be affected,.. to name the most common.

One may argue that deep states of meditation could replace the sleep stage, and there would be neuroscientific evidence pointing in that direction, too: EEG scans of the brain can show that some phases of meditation are similar to the sleep stage for the brain. However, I believe that one needs to be quite skilled at meditating to be in that state for a longer time.. If one is good with meditating all through the night regulary, one may just give it a go (for whatever reason that may be.) As it is with these things, the body will certainly tell when sleeping is necessary. It's wise to always check on symptoms of sleep deprivation if one can't sleep at all.
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:40 pm

The Sitter's Practise is one of the Thirteen Ascetic Practices.
It is practised by some forest monks, but it is allowed to sleep without lying down. I tried it a few times for a single night at Wat Pah Nanachat and Chithurst, but always found it counter-productive. There are three grades:

This is from the Path of Purification:

73. xiii. The sitter’s practice is undertaken with one of the following statements: “I refuse lying down” or “I undertake the sitter’s practice.”
The sitter can get up in any one of three watches of the night and walk up and down: for lying down is the only posture not allowed. These are the directions. [79]
74. This has three grades too. Herein, one who is strict is not allowed a back-rest or cloth band or binding-strap [to prevent falling while asleep].17 The medium one is allowed any one of these three. The mild one is allowed a back-rest, a cloth band, a binding-strap, a cushion, a “five-limb” and a “seven-limb.” A “five-limb” is [a chair] made with [four legs and] a support for the back. A “seven-limb” is one made with [four legs,] a support for the back and an [arm] support on each side. They made that, it seems, for the Elder Pìþhábhaya (Abhaya of the Chair). The elder became a non-returner, and then attained Nibbána.
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby Babadhari » Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:45 pm

dear purpleplanet

you may want to take heed of this, as a worstcase scenario

Jack Kornfield wrote:
A student who sat a three-month retreat that I taught was an over-zealous young karate student seeking the extremes of spiritual intensity. Rather than follow the instructions, he decided to get enlightened as quickly as possible in his own way. In the middle of the retreat he sat down and vowed to himself not to move for an entire day and night. After the first few hours he began to sit through sensations of fire and intense pain. He sat all afternoon, all night, and all the next morning. If one does this long enough, the pain and fire become so powerful that consciousness becomes disassociated and catapulted out of the body. There are many more gentle ways to have out-of-the-body experiences, but this happened to him very abruptly. As he continued to sit he began to experience all sorts of altered states. When he got up after twenty-four hours, he was filled with explosive energy. He strode into the middle of the dining hall filled with one hundred silent retreatants and began to yell and practice his karate manoeuvres at triple speed. The whole room was bursting with his energy, and in the silence he could feel the fear that arose in many people around him, who were very sensitive after two months of silence. He made sounds with the movement, and his energy appeared to have flooded his third and sixth chakras. Then he said, "When I look at each of you, I see behind you a whole trail of bodies showing your past lives." He was living in a very different state of consciousness, which he had attained through pushing his body to such a limit. But he could not sit still or focus for a moment. Instead, he was very fearful and agitated, moving in a wild and manic state, as if he had temporarily gone crazy.

What did we do with him? Since he was an athlete, we started him jogging. We got him to run ten miles in the morning and afternoon. We changed his diet. While everyone else was eating vegetarian food, we put him on meat loaf and hamburgers. We made him take frequent hot baths and showers. We had him work and dig up a good part of the garden. And we kept at least one person with him all the time. After about three days he was able to sleep again. Then we started him off meditating slowly and carefully again. While his experiences may have been valid spiritual and psychic openings, they were not brought about in a natural or balanced way, and there was no way he could integrate them.

A Path with Heart: A Guide Through the Perils and Promises of Spiritual Life (p. 131)


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19519&p=273637&hilit=karate#p273637

luckily for the student this was in a retreat enviroment under supervision of a learned teacher

in my opinion, i feel intensive meditations should always be practiced under a qualified instructor,

from my own experience i learned the hard way that the mind can play 'funny tricks' when deprived of sleep. i became delusional and paranoid :rolleye: . i have also seen this happen to others who actually began to hallucinate and became suicidal.

i'm not at all saying this will happen, just that it does and it could

much metta to you

Kitzt

:namaste:
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby purple planet » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:24 am

I will keep my 6 hours sleep just to be on the safe side ... its not good to make the vina string to tight :buddha2:
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance
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Re: no sleep at all?

Postby Babadhari » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:14 am

:zzz:

:namaste:
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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