Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Still, I'm a bit surprised at the number of objectors, since in this case the women don't seem to be exploited — its a blameless source of extra income from them working from home.

There is a definite yuck factor involved in this though......

Greetings Ben,

Ben wrote:Repulsiveness of nutriment.

But how is this, as a utilisation of technical commentarial term, true of breast-milk ice cream any more than it is of say, something like muesli slice.

...and secondly, how does one separate it from the unwholesome mindstate of aversion?

Metta,
Retro.

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,

Ben wrote:Repulsiveness of nutriment.

But how is this, as a utilisation of technical commentarial term, true of breast-milk ice cream any more than it is of say, something like muesli slice.

None. human-milk ice-cream is just a more prescient reminder of the repulsiveness of nutriment. It may be a commentarial term, but its in the suttas. Forgive me if I don't provide a reference right now as I am in the thick of it at work.

retrofuturist wrote:...and secondly, how does one separate it from the unwholesome mindstate of aversion?

Metta,
Retro.

Repulsiveness of nutriment has nothing to do with aversion and more to do with vipassana "seeing things as they really are".
kind regrds

Ben

Greetings Ben,

Ben wrote:Forgive me if I don't provide a reference right now as I am in the thick of it at work.

No worries... I was just keen to understand the context in which you were using the term on the first page, in response to venerable Pesala's post.

Ben wrote:repulsiveness of nutriment. It may be a commentarial term, but its in the suttas.

Are you sure?

I thought this was how it was regarded in the suttas...

SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband & wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear & appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up & depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, 'Our meager provisions are used up & depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear & appealing, and make dried meat & jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.' So they would kill their only baby son, loved & endearing, and make dried meat & jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] 'Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?' Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?"

"No, lord."

"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"

"Yes, lord."

"In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded. When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world.

I would have thought the focus was more on the functionality of nutriment and dispassion.

Don't feel compelled to rush a response - all in good time. Better to have a good Dhamma conversation than a quick one.

Metta,
Retro.

I have to retract my support.
I did not read the article but misunderstood that the Ice-cream is one of the new breeds from Trader Joes and Whole foods market.I have just read the entire article.
I don't eat any dessert but even if I eat Ice-cream or dessert, I would not touch it.

Surprised no-one brought up Tofutti as an alternative:



M-4

Ben wrote:Repulsiveness of nutriment.

All physical food can be contemplated as repulsive, whether it is meat, fish, milk, beans, or rice.
The fact that the idea of ice-cream from human milk is yucky doesn't make it unsuitable for Vegans.

A good Buddhist should be able to see beyond external appearances and habitual perceptions — eating just for the sake of nutrition.

I heard that long ago, when Ajahn Sucitto was the abbot at Harnham Vihāra, the monks were getting too picky about their food, so he instituted "the bucket practice."

All almsfood was mixed in a bucket, stirred up with a wood spatula, and the monks could take as much as they wanted. Rice, curry, cake, ice-cream, whatever, it all went into the bucket.

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

Ben wrote:Repulsiveness of nutriment.

All physical food can be contemplated as repulsive, whether it is meat, fish, milk, beans, or rice.
The fact that the idea of ice-cream from human milk is yucky doesn't make it unsuitable for Vegans.

A good Buddhist should be able to see beyond external appearances and habitual perceptions — eating just for the sake of nutrition.

Yes Bhante, I believe that is consistent with what I was saying.

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I heard that long ago, when Ajahn Sucitto was the abbot at Harnham Vihāra, the monks were getting too picky about their food, so he instituted "the bucket practice."

All almsfood was mixed in a bucket, stirred up with a wood spatula, and the monks could take as much as they wanted. Rice, curry, cake, ice-cream, whatever, it all went into the bucket.

Yes, we have a very similar meal here at the Outdoor Education campus where I work. For the Year 8 programs, one lunch is a 'bucket lunch', into which everything is tipped and mixed. Perhaps because of the physical nature of the program and that most of the kids don't see what goes into it, the kids love it.

Retro wrote: I would have thought the focus was more on the functionality of nutriment and dispassion.
Don't feel compelled to rush a response - all in good time. Better to have a good Dhamma conversation than a quick one.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, very busy at our annual working bee and ironically, catering. Currently taking a break in a very busy weekend schedule.
Repulsiveness of nutriment, which does allow practitioners to develop wisdom into the reality of food for what it is, free from the overlay of our own craving and aversion-fuelled perceptions and sankharas, does also has the effect of causing one to utilise food for its functional value and the development dispassion. Dispassion is a product of vipassana.
Anyway, back to the cooking...

Metta-4 wrote:Surprised no-one brought up Tofutti as an alternative:

M-4

Hello Metta-4,

The discussion is about human female's breast milk and our opinions of its being 'harvested' and sold as flavoured ice-cream.
(I think we're all aware of non-milk alternatives).

What do you think?

with metta
Chris

It certainly evokes a feeling of disgust in me. Kind of has a "cannibalistic" touch to it.

cooran wrote:

Metta-4 wrote:Surprised no-one brought up Tofutti as an alternative:

M-4

Hello Metta-4,

The discussion is about human female's breast milk and our opinions of its being 'harvested' and sold as flavoured ice-cream.
(I think we're all aware of non-milk alternatives).

What do you think?

with metta
Chris

I think I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot biscotti. Hence the suggested alternative, which, oddly enough, many people have told me the thought of tofu ice cream is repulsive.

M-4

There are so many babies that could benefit from this.

Its beyond decadent and grotesque. Its just the newest fad of "morbid" to enter our public sphere. Using another person's body for sustenance... is just so wrong.

Mothers and babies enjoy a "sacred" bond. To corrupt that in such a ... supremely selfish manner... is just... wrong.

I'm shocked its been allowed to go on this long.

I'm wondering what the long term effects on the women would be ? Osteoporosis ?

Having a baby and producing milk drains a women's calcium reserves, even when she is getting enough... to prolong this process after the development of the child for the enjoyment of an adult that does not need it is just ... sick.

one of the women in my church (growing up) had really really bad osteoporosis. I remember seeing her horribly distorted back and the women in the church would tell the children in private that it was because she had too many children without taking calcium supplements. during that period in American history, families were large, and nutrition was poor. she had a lot of children ... fourteen i believe.

How long would you really have to give milk before it would mimic the effects of multiple pregnancies? 5 years of doing this would be like having five children? If these women have already had several children (and some appear to have grey hair in the photo) then they could be putting themselves at a serious risk for long term health risks with their bones. Watching my own female family members suffer with bone problems makes me reflect on the sacrifice they made to bring me into this world. All of them... my great grand mother, down to (now my own mother) have had bone issues. Part of that is a result of the extraordinary calcium and nutrient input that goes into milk production. As I understand it these women were poor peasants living in very rural areas. It seems like its taking advantage of them and putting them at risk needlessly... just for the sake of decadence.

The focus did not seem to be on helping them. If people were willing to buy ice cream these women made with their own bodies.. then they certainly could have given them money for cows milk instead. If the emphasis were on helping the women, then another means could have been constructed to enrich them without harming their bodies. Instead though, I feel that THEY are being turned into the product. Their bodily fluids are being equated to that of a farm animal. Literally, the women's milk was being priced against other available forms of milk - all farm raised. I really am uncomfortable putting women in a category that allows a bodily fluid to be farmed.

From my perspective (and I know nothing of their hardships), I cannot fathom how the women are better off for the handful of cash they made off this.

If I'm being judgemental though, please explain. I'm often quick to judge.

silentone wrote: . . . If I'm being judgemental though, please explain. I'm often quick to judge.

Not at all. Your points are well taken. This ice-cream business is a bit silliness that will likely pass.