Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

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Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:49 pm

Greetings

This question has been bugging me lately so hopefuly i can resolve it here :smile:


Is there a difference between the practice described in the Anapanasati Sutta compared to the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (excluding the nine charnel ground meditation isnt included in the Anapanasati Sutta)


They both state that they are a direct route to nibbana and, to me, seem exactly the same teaching. Is there any difference between the two outlined practices, maybe one being more focused on mindfulness and one more focues on concentration?


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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby appicchato » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:35 am

Hi Craig,

According to my understanding (and a very simplified one at that) Anapanasati is mindfulness of breathing, while Satipatthana is the foundation of mindfulness (of the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental objects)...

While mindfulness is a central theme of both, it is directed toward different 'subjects'...
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby bodom » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:10 am

I really dont think its possible to differentiate between the two maybe only in that for anapanasati to be developed in all 16 steps it is to be done in the sitting posture as the second and third tetrads are, according to the commentaries, attainable only after entering jhana. Satipatthana on the other hand is not restricted to the sitting posture only and is to be developed in all four postures as is evident by the section on mindfulnes of postures and clear comprhension. This is of course all up for debate.

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The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:31 am

appicchato wrote:Hi Craig,

According to my understanding (and a very simplified one at that) Anapanasati is mindfulness of breathing, while Satipatthana is the foundation of mindfulness (of the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental objects)...

While mindfulness is a central theme of both, it is directed toward different 'subjects'...

yeah i think this is pretty much sums it up
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:01 pm

appicchato wrote:Hi Craig,

According to my understanding (and a very simplified one at that) Anapanasati is mindfulness of breathing, while Satipatthana is the foundation of mindfulness (of the body, feelings, consciousness, and mental objects)...

While mindfulness is a central theme of both, it is directed toward different 'subjects'...



What he said :tongue:

the instruction is only a few lines compared to the analysis. there is a shourtened Satipatthana with only the instruction part in AN (without looking??) and not sure if there is a shourtened anapanasati version of only the instruction.

EDIT- Sorry SN not AN here is the satipatthana-vibangha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
and SN54.3 is the closest I can find to an equivelent page 1767 of Bhikkhu Bodhis translation
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:29 am

both anapanasathi on it's own and the different satipatthana methods can equally take you to nibbana.

however it is a safer bet that the satipatthana methods will be more effective as if one method doesnt quite work for you there are other methods via which the required changes in your mind will take place.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby appicchato » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:25 pm

rowyourboat wrote:both anapanasathi on it's own and the different satipatthana methods can equally take you to nibbana.

Unfortunately that's not what the Buddha said...what he did say was 'This is the only way' (Satipatthana)...not 'these are the ways'...

Be well... :smile:
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Dmytro » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:36 am

Hi,

Is there a difference between the practice described in the Anapanasati Sutta compared to the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (excluding the nine charnel ground meditation isnt included in the Anapanasati Sutta)


Anapanasati is just one of the options to develop Satipatthana. They both feature four ways to establish remembrance (sati).

They both state that they are a direct route to nibbana


As for the term 'ekayana', see the thread:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5587

and, to me, seem exactly the same teaching. Is there any difference between the two outlined practices, maybe one being more focused on mindfulness and one more focues on concentration?


These suttas complement one another very well, and present the same teaching on four ways for establishing remembrance (sati). The difference is just that in Anapanasati, the particular basis of concentration is selected.

Please note that these suttas don't describe the whole practice. Other texts are also neccessary, for exemple, those that describe, how to apply four right efforts in this context, how to develop the seven factors of Awakening, and so on. 'Sati' is just one aspect of practice, though quite important.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby bodom » Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:35 am

appicchato wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:both anapanasathi on it's own and the different satipatthana methods can equally take you to nibbana.

Unfortunately that's not what the Buddha said...what he did say was 'This is the only way' (Satipatthana)...not 'these are the ways'...

Be well... :smile:


In the Anapanasati sutta the buddha says that "Mindfulness of in and out breathing, when developed and pursued, brings the four frames of reference to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed and persued, bring the seven factors for awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed and persued, bring clear knowing and release to completion."

Thus anapanasati can take one all the way to Nibbana.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Norbert » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:18 pm

What works for me is seeing the anapanasati sutra as instruction to cultivate concentration, and the satipatthana sutra as a means to cultivate insights, for which great concentration is required. Gassho
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:33 am

once again, based on personal experience in teaching the dhamma, it is easier for people to let go (the purpose of satipatthana- 'not clinging to anything in the world') if they work on the actual objects that they are trying to let go (ie- by seeing their impermanence etc in sights sounds sensations bodies feelings etc) rather than by the breath because it seems to be meant in a symbolic way. Seeing the impermanence of the breath does not automatically guarantee that our craving towards our bodies for example will be gotten rid of.

there is a sutta (which I cant find right now) which says that it is good to do all of the four foundations of mindfulness because it is like a pile of sand sitting at a point where 2 roads cross- chariots from all 4 direction will completely disperse this pile of sand. Similarly ignorance will be completely dispersed by doing all of the four foundations of mindfulness.

it is also worthwhile noting that the 'ekayana magga' (the one sure path') refrain is not directly mentioned in anapanasati sutta, and is mentioned in the satipatthana sutta.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby starter » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:15 am

Hi friends,

I studied and compared these two suttas carefully today, and came to the following tentative conclusions:

1) Satipaṭṭhāna appears to be for establishing the mindfulness at a more fundamental stage and for gaining the knowledge of the nature of the body/feelings/mind/dhammas as well as for gaining some preliminary insight of anicca: he discerns different types of breathing, discerns 3 types of bodily feeling and mental feeling, discerns the presence and absence of different mind states; he trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body / calm the bodily fabrication (breath) [but no calming of the mental fabrication (feeling) or mind]; he "remains focused on" the body/feelings/mind and the dhammas (teachings) and contemplate anicca of them.

2) Anapanasati appears to be for developing the mindfulness of the body/feelings/mind at a more advanced level to reach tranquility in order to gain penetrating insight and liberation: he "fully comprehend" and "thoroughly experiencing" those mentioned in 1), and calm not only the bodily fabrication (breath/body) but also the mental fabrication (feeling) and mind. It seems to me that the purpose of the first three tetrads is to calm the breath/body, the feelings and the mind to gain tranquility by using the most effective ways respectively (e.g. experiencing piti and sukha for calming the feelings and gladden the mind), which are all the preparations for the fourth tetrad, the vipasana.

Your comments are most welcome. Metta,

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:45 am

See Chanmyay Sayādaw's explanation in Ānāpānasati: Samatha or Vipassanā?
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:01 pm

Norbert wrote:What works for me is seeing the anapanasati sutra as instruction to cultivate concentration, and the satipatthana sutra as a means to cultivate insights, for which great concentration is required. Gassho


I wonder if it's a difference of focus, ie the Anapanasati Sutta is focuses on samadhi, and the Satipatthana Sutta focuses on sati?

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:38 pm

Hi Spiny

Satipattana is said in the suttas to develop both concentration (samadhi) and insight. So do not think that satipattana is only about developing insight. The suttas often say that without samadhi there can be no insight- so it follows that when a person is mindful (satipattana) both concentration can and must develop.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:59 pm

rowyourboat wrote: The suttas often say that without samadhi there can be no insight- so it follows that when a person is mindful (satipattana) both concentration can and must develop.


I think you're right, but I'm still trying to get to grips with the relationship between sati and samadhi from a practical point of view. :smile:

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby starter » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:17 pm

Hi Teachers/Friends,

I'm reading Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta again and have just noticed that mindfulness and clear comprehension of postures and daily activities should all be accompanied by contemplating anicca (their arising and passing away) and by inferring this body to other bodies.

I'm still a bit puzzled by the sentence:

"Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.".

It seems to mean we should always maintain a fine sense of whole body awareness?


Metta,

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby meindzai » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:49 pm

The anapanasati Sutta is a pretty straightforward meditation Sutta. Not that most people are capable of doing all 16 aspects of it with complete depth, but it's not impossible. It is a good Sutta to base your sitting meditation on.

It's been surmised that the Satipatthana Sutta may be a hammered together collection of teachings and not really a Sutta that was ever delivered all in one sermon. It really does not give any kind of systematic way of practicing. It is a long list of many different factors and teachings. Some of the practices require sitting meditation, some of them are things to pay attention to in daily life, and some are the lists of the teachings themselves (like the eightfold path, the seven factors of awakening, the five hindrances). There's just a *lot* of stuff in there. So I don't really consider it a meditation sutta.

If you try to practice the whole Satipatthana Sutta and pay attention to every listed factor every single day you will lose your mind. You simply cannot go through your day watching all the postures, all of your actions, all of your hindrances, contemplating the eightfold path, four noble truths, the four elements, seven factors of awakening, concentrating on your breath and doing cemetery contemplations.

Any meditation or contemplation-in-action from the Satipatthana Sutta is going to be something that you choose or something that you develop over time. Many of the practices are prescriptive or useful for people with certain predispositions. A lot of the vipassana practices out there are *based* on the satipatthana Sutta but they necessarily exclude things from it.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby adeh » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:26 pm

You may find this book of interest---Adeh

http://santipada.org/aswiftpairofmessengers/
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby daverupa » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:20 pm

adeh wrote:You may find this book of interest---Adeh

http://santipada.org/aswiftpairofmessengers/


A quick summary of another work by the author of that work; snippets pertinent to this discussion follow:

"Modern teachings on mindfulness are almost exclusively derived from a peculiar 20th century interpretation of one text, the Pali Satipatthana Sutta. This doctrine, the vipassanavada, says that satipatthana is a practice of ‘dry insight’, where the meditator, without previous practice of tranquility meditation, is ‘mindful’ of the changing phenomena of experience. This alone is sufficient to realize enlightenment. When we carefully consider the range of teachings found in early Buddhist texts on mindfulness, it becomes clear that this doctrine does not hold up."

"Satipatthana is the ‘contemplation’ (anupassana) of body, feelings, mind, and principles (dhammas). ‘Anupassana’ means ‘sustained watching’. It is an awareness that stays on one thing and doesn’t jump from object to object. For this reason satipatthana is said to be the ‘way to convergence’, ekayana magga."

"The main practice of satipatthana is breath meditation, anapanasati. One focusses on the breath, keeping awareness there, continually ‘remembering’ the breath. As the physical breath becomes tranquil, one moves from body contemplation to the awareness of the subtle feelings of bliss and rapture that arise in the breath. The mind becomes purified. Finally one reflects on how the whole process is impermanent and conditioned; this is contemplation of dhammas (‘principles’). There are many other types of meditation that can be classified as satipatthana, but all of them follow a similar course."

"One of the additions is the inclusion of the awareness of postures and daily activities among its meditation exercizes. The awareness of postures is, in every other text, part of the preparation for meditation, not a kind of meditation itself."

"Another late addition to the Pali Satipatthana Sutta is a ‘refrain’ following each meditation, which says one practices contemplating ‘rise and fall’. This is a vipassana practice, which originally belonged to only the final of the four satipatthanas, contemplation of dhammas."

"Each version of the Satipatthana Sutta is based on a shared ancestor, which has been expanded in different ways by the schools. This process continued for several centuries following the Buddha’s death. Of the texts we have today, the closest to the ancestral version is that contained in the Pali Abhidhamma Vibhanga, if we leave aside the Abhidhammic elaborations."

"Tracing the development of texts on satipatthana in later Buddhism, there is a gradual tendency to emphasize the vipassana aspect at the expense of the samatha side. This happened across various schools, although there is some variation from text to text, and perhaps some differences in sectarian emphasis. This led to various contradictions and problems in interpretation."
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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