Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:58 pm

Is there any evidence that other versions of the satiptthana sutta don't have the refrain after each method?

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby daverupa » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:09 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Is there any evidence that other versions of the satiptthana sutta don't have the refrain after each method?


In short, yes, although I expect it isn't a smoking gun so much as an argument with merits. Read the book to discern the evidence, as laid out by the author, for yourself. It's free, and you'll want to have a look at chapter 14, in particular page 166.

copy/paste >>> santifm1.0.googlepages.com/webmind.pdf <<< to download it.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby starter » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:53 pm

The early version of Chinese Agama has only "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself" (the same applies to the feeling/mind/Dhammas).

This part "Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself" is absent in all the relevant paragraphs in Chinese Agama. Even without these exercises, one could still become an arahat or anagami within one day by doing the rest of the exercises accoring to Agama sutta.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby starter » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:25 am

I studied again the Chinese Agama suttas equivalent to Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta. In these two early suttas, Step 3 clearly means "discerning the formations/movements of the whole body, breathe in/out", and step 4 apprarently means "discerning the stillness of the formations/movements of the whole body, breathe in/out". Therefore the "bodily fabrication" and "the entire body" doesn't really mean the breath itself, but the formations/movements of the whole body involved in breathing. Then the focus of the mindfulness appears to be the body itself, instead of the breath.

Here are the Chinese paragraphs:

复次。比丘观身如身。比丘者。念入息即知念入息。念出息即知念出息。入息长即知入息长。出息长即知出息长。入息短即知入息短。出息短即知出息短。学一切身 息入。觉一切身 息出。学止身行息入。学止身行息出。如是比丘观内身如身。观外身如身。立念在身。有知有见。有明有达。是谓比丘观身如身
[中阿含经第98经 念处经]

"... 聖弟子入息念時,如入息念學;出息念時,如出息念學:若長、若短、一切身行覺知、入息念時,如[身行覺知]入息念學;出息念時,如[身行覺知]出息念學、身行休息、入息念時,如身行休息入息念學;身行休息出息念時,如身行休息出息念學,聖弟子爾時身身觀念住,異於身者,彼亦如是隨身比思惟。"
[雜阿含810經]
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:00 am

meindzai wrote:If you try to practice the whole Satipatthana Sutta and pay attention to every listed factor every single day you will lose your mind. You simply cannot go through your day watching all the postures, all of your actions, all of your hindrances, contemplating the eightfold path, four noble truths, the four elements, seven factors of awakening, concentrating on your breath and doing cemetery contemplations.



I agree. It seems to me that the Satipatthana Sutta is a "toolbox" containing a wide range of subjects for mindfulness and contemplation.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:01 pm

Hi starter,

I have taken it to mean the breath because of the following bit from the sutta itself:

"On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world."

To me this is the strongest academic/literrary reason for it. The logical reason is that if a person becomes externally focused as a result of focusing on bodily sensations, then attaining jhana will not be possible or very difficult in any case, as that requires an inward focus. The experiential reason is because I can say that when the breath becomes short it is easier to then focus on the 'whole body' of the breath and subsequently stop the 'bodily fabrication' (I would like to see a body awareness do that immediately afterwards) by the temporary cessation of the breath.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby starter » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:00 pm

Hi Matheesha,

BB's translation is "the in-&-out breathing (not breath) — is classed as a body among bodies ...". The breathing is the bodily formation/movements, while the breath is the air coming in and out of nostril. Breathing (e.g. the up and down movements of the chest or belly or the whole body) is not really just a changeable bodily sensation, and is as stable as the breath. I'd consider breathing as the internal activity of the body, and breath in/out of the nostril as something external instead. In particular, by attending to the bodily movements and their stilling instead of the breath, it won't be an abrupt switch of the meditation object/attention from the breath to the body awareness, when the breathing becomes undetectable; so it should be better for jhana.

Now the sentence "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance" (the body awareness) really makes sense to me, together with the whole picture. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Metta,

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:12 pm

Starter,

With regards to internal/external as I meant in my post: a certain depth of samadhi needs to be reached to recognize the term the way I meant it, rather than give it abstract theoretical meaning as I see you have done.

When the breath stops you are about 30% of the way to the first jhana. There is a lot more work to be done. Time to knuckle down and do it. This is not a class project you finish in a couple of weeks. This is the project to end all projects- it will take a lifetime. Are you mentally prepared for it?

Viriya that knows no bounds. A life devoted. A quest to end all quests.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Kenshou » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:26 pm

When the breath stops you are about 30% of the way to the first jhana.
Source?

I've only seen the stopping of the breath in reference to the 4th jhana, for example in this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:44 pm

Kenshou wrote:
When the breath stops you are about 30% of the way to the first jhana.
Source?

I've only seen the stopping of the breath in reference to the 4th jhana, for example in this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html


Well, my source is the Anapanasati sutta itself!

..and my experience.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Kenshou » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:50 pm

Hm, I'm not so sure that "kaayasankhaara passbhaya.m (p)assasaamiti" necessarily signifies the stopping of breathing specifically, or even the stopping of anything, just calming. However, I can see how calming the breathing down a lot could be complimentary to the overall calming of bodily fabrications which is probably going on in any case.

...in my experience
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Kenshou » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:15 pm

I suppose I should clarify that I know that the in and out breathing is a bodily fabrication, and so is certainly counted in that step of the anapanasati sutta.

However there's a lot more "stuff" going on in our experience of the body, and I think it can be said that all these little things tied up in the experience of the body can be referred to as bodily fabrications. The calming of which, including the breath, is conductive to greater mental stillness, I suspect.
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:35 pm

Kenshou wrote: The calming of which, including the breath, is conductive to greater mental stillness, I suspect.


That's the way I've experienced Anapanasati - calming the breath calms the body, which in turn calms the mind.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby meindzai » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:15 pm

Kenshou wrote:
When the breath stops you are about 30% of the way to the first jhana.
Source?

I've only seen the stopping of the breath in reference to the 4th jhana, for example in this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html


I have heard the same thing (that it is in reference to the 4th jhana) by Thanissaro Bhikkhu in one of the audiodharma.org talks. Even then this is questionable, since we're not really talking about stopping the breath, but the breath being calmed to a point where it is barely detectable, though it's possible (According to TB) that some respiration is occurring through the pores of the skin. He did not quote any sutta here and seemed to be speaking from experience though did not state such outright (as of course he would be forbidden to do under vinaya).

In anapanasati you are cultivating piti and sukkha starting in the second tetrad, which are factors of the first jhana, but not *all* the factors of the first jhana. I have experienced piti and sukkha in meditation, but I don't believe I've been anywhere near jhana as there were times my mind was still pretty racy.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:42 pm

The way I see it the first four lines (1-4) refer to the first (30%) of the path to the first jhana. The next 4 (5-8) refer to the middle (30%), by the end of which you will completed 2/3 of the way there. The 9-12 steps is the last 30%, by the end of which you are in the first jhana.

Long breath, short breath, whole body of breath, stopping of the breath-30%

Piti, sukha, mental fabrication, calming mental fabrication -60%

Sensitive/experiencing the mind, gladdening the mind,unifying the mind, releasing the mind (first jhana) -100%

It is a very sophisticated way of doing anapanasati- I only realised this many years after I actually went past these stages in a 'rough and ready' way. It is well worthwhile following the steps and seeing where it takes you.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby starter » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:03 pm

Hi Martheesha,

Thanks a lot for sharing your experience.

"Piti, sukha, mental fabrication, calming mental fabrication -60%"

-- Would "calming mental fabrication" refer to stilling feelings and perceptions of piti and sukha occurred within that particular sitting? But the sukha (extraordinarily pleasant bodily feeling accompanied by very tranquil mental feeling) I experienced once occurred not within that particular evening sitting, but rather in the following morning and lasted for the whole day (piti occurred during the sitting though). I read/heard that such sukha can last even longer. So it might not be possible to calm such mental fabrication during the sitting and I don't see why the feeling of suhka should be calmed -- it's very helpful to tranquilize the body and mind for jhana.

-- Would have someone already mastered jhana if s/he can induce piti and sukha at will? So far even the well known meditation masters I've encountered can't induce piti and sukha at will. If you can, I'd appreciate your tips how to induce them so that they can occur for every anapanasati meditation, if possible.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby starter » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:09 pm

"Would "calming mental fabrication" refer to stilling feelings and perceptions of piti and sukha occurred within that particular sitting? ... it might not be possible to calm such mental fabrication during the sitting and I don't see why the feeling of suhka should be calmed -- it's very helpful to tranquilize the body and mind for jhana."

Hm, I've realized this morning "calming mental fabrication" more likely refers to stilling our perceptions of piti and sukha -- our likes/dislikes of them, instead of stilling piti and sukha themselves.
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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:01 pm

Hi Starter,

My experience with 'calming the mental fabrication' has been the absorption into nimitta/background of the mind. -A bit like draining the water from the fish tank until the water surface hits the white sand at the bottom.

Piti sukha (and the other jhana factors) can be absorbed into at will during the first jhana (and other jhanas). Fun mental gymnastics but I didn't find it particularly helpful. When you really understand that things are unsatisfactory through vipassana, these things tend to loose their fascination and 'wonder'.

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby starter » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:15 pm

Hi Matheesha,

Thanks as always. As to your comment:

"Piti sukha (and the other jhana factors) can be absorbed into at will during the first jhana (and other jhanas). Fun mental gymnastics but I didn't find it particularly helpful. When you really understand that things are unsatisfactory through vipassana, these things tend to loose their fascination and 'wonder'."

-- But I thought without piti and sukha (2 of the 5 jhana factors) one can't enter jhana. I read the pamphlet you kindly sent me and it seems to me that the sukha you described is only mental pleasure. As I understood from some other readings/talks, sukha is both physical and mental pleasure, the kind of bodily pleasure surpassing any mundane pleasure, which can tranquilize both the body and mind and generates equanimity. Or probably there's some lighter sukha without bodily pleasure? But such "sukha" won't be able to tranquilize the body.

Metta,

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Re: Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta

Postby Jack » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:44 am

bodom wrote:I really dont think its possible to differentiate between the two maybe only in that for anapanasati to be developed in all 16 steps it is to be done in the sitting posture as the second and third tetrads are, according to the commentaries, attainable only after entering jhana. Satipatthana on the other hand is not restricted to the sitting posture only and is to be developed in all four postures as is evident by the section on mindfulnes of postures and clear comprhension. This is of course all up for debate.

:namaste:

-----------------------
The 2nd and 3rd tetrads are attainable only after enterring jhana in some commentaries. Other commentaries say enterring the jhana level are not necessary. Some concentration is necessary in the 2nd and 3rd tetrads..

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