Progression of Teaching

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waryoffolly
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:30 pm

Progression of Teaching

Post by waryoffolly »

I'm going to offer some criticism of a common response on this forum. Please understand I am attacking any individuals, but rather just a specific idea.

When teaching the Dhamma we should be sure to answer questions taking into the full range of circumstances affecting a person. In particular I'd like to open the discussion about responding to people under some sort of serious emotional stress (strong anxiety, depression, etc.)

Here is my opinion: If a person is having strong emotional conflicts then we must be very careful with what we tell them to practice/understand. If they are seriously uneasy then they will have a very high likelihood of completely misunderstanding what we have told them. If we tell them to practice seeing anatta/dukkha (or maybe even anicca which seems more difficult to misunderstand) then it is possible that he/she might have his/her condition worsen from focusing incorrectly on dukkha and thinking the world is pointless, or focusing incorrectly on anatta and becoming obsessed with the idea that he/she doesn't exist.

For people with a serious lack of emotional calm we should be very explicit about having them first develop internal stillness before trying to investigate the more 'insight' types of meditation.

My main point is that someone who is experiencing intense suffering here and now should be even more certain that they begin practicing at the base of the Buddha's teaching: Develop sila, then samadhi, then panna. We should not recommend (imo) seeing anatta/dukkha to a depressed/anxious person without having first made sure that they can emotionally support these ideas.

(It should come as no surprise that many modern Buddhists are encountering dark-nights. This, imo, comes from trying to force oneself to understand the deeper aspects of emptiness without having first developed proper sila and samadhi.)

Respectfully,
waryoffolly
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Goofaholix
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Re: Progression of Teaching

Post by Goofaholix »

This isn't a counselling service, and we can't be expected to intuit someones mental/emotional state accurately over the internet.

We give advice on a best efforts basis.

Once people notice a poster needs more I think they usually recommend finding a teacher or getting help.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Progression of Teaching

Post by mikenz66 »

Indeed, and the Terms of Service have some directions to refer a member to qualified help if a member appears to have serious problems:
Dhamma Wheel is for the exploration and discussion of the Dhamma. While the aim of the Dhamma is to provide a path to the end of suffering, members of Dhamma Wheel are not qualified to deal with acute episodes of mental illness of another, as expressed on a discussion forum.
...
:anjali:
Mike
waryoffolly
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: Progression of Teaching

Post by waryoffolly »

Goofaholix wrote:This isn't a counselling service, and we can't be expected to intuit someones mental/emotional state accurately over the internet.

We give advice on a best efforts basis.

Once people notice a poster needs more I think they usually recommend finding a teacher or getting help.
Of course we give advice on a best effort basis. Yes we are not a counselling service. However you can be expected to intuit that a person who explicitly tells you they are experiencing depression is actually depressed. My point was not about people whose emotional state we do not know. My criticism is only directed towards times when we have been explicitly told whats going on in their mind.

I have noticed a tendency for people to give advice that a depressed/anxious person probably will completely misintepret. I want to raise awareness of this so we can be more careful of what we say to depressed people.

Mikennz- I am suggesting that as a group we think more carefully about what we say to depressed/anxious people. I am not saying that this is a requirement since its not in the TOS. However, it seems like the more compassionate thing to do.

Respectfully,
waryoffolly
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Goofaholix
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Re: Progression of Teaching

Post by Goofaholix »

waryoffolly wrote:Of course we give advice on a best effort basis. Yes we are not a counselling service. However you can be expected to intuit that a person who explicitly tells you they are experiencing depression is actually depressed. My point was not about people whose emotional state we do not know. My criticism is only directed towards times when we have been explicitly told whats going on in their mind.
That’s good in theory but one can’t be expected to have read everything someone has ever posted, so an explicit outline of someone’s mental/emotional state can easily be missed.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
waryoffolly
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:30 pm

Re: Progression of Teaching

Post by waryoffolly »

Goofaholix wrote:
waryoffolly wrote:Of course we give advice on a best effort basis. Yes we are not a counselling service. However you can be expected to intuit that a person who explicitly tells you they are experiencing depression is actually depressed. My point was not about people whose emotional state we do not know. My criticism is only directed towards times when we have been explicitly told whats going on in their mind.
That’s good in theory but one can’t be expected to have read everything someone has ever posted, so an explicit outline of someone’s mental/emotional state can easily be missed.
I quote myself in response to this "My point was not about people whose emotional state we do not know." I am not claiming (at this time) that we should be expected to read a bunch of posts before giving advice to a person (although that could be useful...). My post is about people whose emotional state we know because we have recently read a post written by the person describing their problem. Several times that I have seen this kind of poorly thought out response were on the exact thread in which the OP talks about his/her anxiety in the original post.

Yes we may no have read every single post of a person before givin advice, but that is not the point of my post. The point is that we should excercise more caution.

I see nothing in my statement that needs further defending... So I think I am through commenting here unless there is a legitimate concern about how what I have suggested is going to make things worse. I am fairly confident that carefully examining our responses to people who we know (as in we have seen and remembered a post where he/she talked about their struggles) are depressed/anxious is only a useful strategy. If you can provide any evidence why this isn't so then please do.

Cheers,
waryoffolly
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mikenz66
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Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Progression of Teaching

Post by mikenz66 »

waryoffolly wrote: Mikennz- I am suggesting that as a group we think more carefully about what we say to depressed/anxious people. I am not saying that this is a requirement since its not in the TOS. However, it seems like the more compassionate thing to do.
It should be quite clear from the TOS that if someone is having serious problems they should be referred to a professional and not counselled via the Forum.
...members of Dhamma Wheel are not qualified to deal with acute episodes of mental illness of another...
I do, of course, agree that it is helpful to think hard about what you post in response to someone who is upset, and all posters should carefully think out the effect that their post might have.

:anjali:
Mike
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