Paid dhamma teachers

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rowyourboat
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Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

Hello All,

What are the problems you see with dhamma teachers being paid for what they do? How can these be overcome? Would like to hear what you think about this issue.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
David2
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by David2 »

rowyourboat wrote:Hello All,

What are the problems you see with dhamma teachers being paid for what they do? How can these be overcome? Would like to hear what you think about this issue.

With metta

Matheesha
There don't have to be problems with it.
It is just a problem if the teacher charges more than he needs to finance a simple living.

Generally, the dhamma is supposed to be free for everyone. However, the teachers of the dhamma still have to eat something.

With Metta,
David
rowyourboat
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

David2 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Hello All,

What are the problems you see with dhamma teachers being paid for what they do? How can these be overcome? Would like to hear what you think about this issue.

With metta

Matheesha
There don't have to be problems with it.
It is just a problem if the teacher charges more than he needs to finance a simple living.

Generally, the dhamma is supposed to be free for everyone. However, the teachers of the dhamma still have to eat something.

With Metta,
David
Hi David,

But how would you decide what a 'simple life' is? Besides who decides that? There are no statutory bodies for this kind of thing, practically speaking. Desires are endless, and often after having one thing it tends to loose it's lustre and then the next higher thing is needed. One man's simple life is another's luxurious one. :shrug:

With metta

M
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& Upekkha
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Kim OHara
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kim OHara »

David2 wrote:Generally, the dhamma is supposed to be free for everyone. However, the teachers of the dhamma still have to eat something.
Absolutely. The solution in traditionally-Buddhist countries is dana to the monks, who are given enough to live on by the entire community, but that doesn't work for us in the West.
'Donations' to teachers here are often 'fees' by another name, and in general I think it's better to be honest about what is happening with the money. In particular, I have reservations about teachers who take more than is needed for a comfortable living (not saying it happens amongst Buddhist teachers but there have been plenty of cases amongst Indian 'gurus' in the West).

:namaste:
Kim
rowyourboat
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Kim,

So you prefer the term 'fees' clearly stated over 'donations'. But what about those who can't afford the fees but can get by with a donation? Surely it is not right to deprive them of the dhamma?

With metta

M
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& Upekkha
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kirk5a
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by kirk5a »

How come laypersons are still laypersons, if they want to teach the Dhamma to such an extent that they need to make a living from teaching? I guess that's my question. Why don't they ordain?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:How come laypersons are still laypersons, if they want to teach the Dhamma to such an extent that they need to make a living from teaching? I guess that's my question. Why don't they ordain?
I'm inclined to think this way for the most part, but understand ordination isn't always possible, for any number of reasons.

As an alternative, they could actually reside at the meditation centre. It's a bit of a mid-point, and if the place of residence/meditation was functional instead of fancy, would help to demonstrate the "not for profit" motive.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Kim OHara
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kim OHara »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Kim,
So you prefer the term 'fees' clearly stated over 'donations'. But what about those who can't afford the fees but can get by with a donation? Surely it is not right to deprive them of the dhamma?
Hi, Matheesha,
It's going to depend on context, obviously, but letting the teacher starve (or, more realistically, forcing him/her to take time away from teaching to earn money for food) is also depriving people of the dhamma. Also, the dhamma, at some some level, is nowadays free to everyone who can read - and that's nearly everyone. There are public libraries, there are free dhamma publications, etc.

Yoga teachers charge a set fee per class, as do Tai Chi and Qi Gong teachers, so why not meditation teachers?
'Dhamma talks' can have introducing people to the dhamma as a primary function and it may be more appropriate to ask for a donation.
Meanwhile teachers, community-spirited people, ordained religious of all religions, and lay religious folk do regularly give their time to deserving causes - English classes for migrants, prison literacy programmes, etc, etc - and any dhamma teacher can do as much or as little of that as he/she chooses. But I think it ought to be their free, conscious choice, not something forced upon them or automatically expected of them.

It's a matter of finding a middle way - as well as teaching it! :tongue:

How you label fees/donations will again depend on context, but IMO anyone asking for a donation ought to say where it's going. A lot of groups do that already, of course.

:namaste:
Kim
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Kim OHara
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kim OHara »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:How come laypersons are still laypersons, if they want to teach the Dhamma to such an extent that they need to make a living from teaching? I guess that's my question. Why don't they ordain?
I'm inclined to think this way for the most part, but understand ordination isn't always possible, for any number of reasons.

As an alternative, they could actually reside at the meditation centre. It's a bit of a mid-point, and if the place of residence/meditation was functional instead of fancy, would help to demonstrate the "not for profit" motive.

Metta,
Retro. :)
That's a good idea where it's possible, Retro, but it's big-city thinking. Groups in smaller places, like here, don't even have sole use of their meditation centres, let alone the possibility of anyone living there.

:namaste:
Kim
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kirk5a
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
kirk5a wrote:How come laypersons are still laypersons, if they want to teach the Dhamma to such an extent that they need to make a living from teaching? I guess that's my question. Why don't they ordain?
I'm inclined to think this way for the most part, but understand ordination isn't always possible, for any number of reasons.
Such as, for example? Keeping in mind - isn't possible.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Kirk,
kirk5a wrote:Such as, for example? Keeping in mind - isn't possible.
There's differing degrees of "possible"... there's firm Vinaya restrictions that might keep some people out (including females, in places with no bhikkhuni support), but even just more mundane things like still having debts, having a family that one is not prepared to leave, requiring medication which would be burdensome for lay-folk to provide etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by mikenz66 »

Teachers I've come across are either monastic (so any donation is optional) or are lay people with day jobs, and, again dana is optional. For retreats the local insight society organizes the venue and charges a fee for the accommodation and food (with a half-price option for those who feel they cannot afford it) and the visiting teachers are provided with travel and accommodation, and it's optional for participants to give dana.

That sort of arrangement seems common in other places (like IMS), with a clear distinction between payment for the venue and food and donations for the teachers. I think it's a useful distinction.

:anjali:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Kim,
Kim O'Hara wrote:That's a good idea where it's possible, Retro, but it's big-city thinking. Groups in smaller places, like here, don't even have sole use of their meditation centres, let alone the possibility of anyone living there.
Not necessarily... why couldn't it be part of, or an annexe to one's place of residence?

Genkaku, who some of us know through Dharma forums, did something similar (albeit in the Zen tradition).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Jhana4
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Jhana4 »

I think the question of "paid dhamma teachers" is coming up because Buddhism is still new in the West and there aren't well established institutions as in Asia for providing for people. I think this question is important as it will help shape what will become western Buddhism. There can be western monks with western sanghas and western temples. Look at Ajahn Brahm.
S.N. Goenka's centers also function very well in the western world, without fees, with volunteer teachers and in a mostly secular institution. The IMS model isn't the only way things can succeed in the U.S. and the West.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kim OHara »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Kim,
Kim O'Hara wrote:That's a good idea where it's possible, Retro, but it's big-city thinking. Groups in smaller places, like here, don't even have sole use of their meditation centres, let alone the possibility of anyone living there.
Not necessarily... why couldn't it be part of, or an annexe to one's place of residence?

Genkaku, who some of us know through Dharma forums, did something similar (albeit in the Zen tradition).

Metta,
Retro. :)
Perhaps I should have said 'some' groups. Of the two groups closest to me, one meets in a rented shop-front which it sub-lets some evenings to groups with similar purposes, and the other meets in a university's multi-faith chaplaincy building. For either of these existing groups to do what you suggest, the teacher would need to be able to permanently set aside space in his/her home - not always easy - and deal with visitor parking, neighbour relations, public liability ... I don't know what else, but those four obstacles are significant enough.

:namaste:
Kim
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