Paid dhamma teachers

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rowyourboat
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

Well the Buddha clearly said that the dhamma is not to be taught for personal gain. I am comfortable with the free or not for profit option. I think Kirk has a point - if you want to make a living off it, maybe you are not cut out to live a lay life- in which case you better deepen your practice real quick!

My worry with paid for dhamma (unless it is a direct translation of the suttas) is that at some level the author may have succumbed to the the pressures of 'demand and supply'- it is after all not a secret that the dhamma goes against the grain of existence.

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Jhana4
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Jhana4 »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:Do people have a problem with paid meditation teachers or paid dhamma teachers?

In that regard here is free 1 hour documentary about a similar debate with hatha yoga as a business in the west.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/134936/yoga-inc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Could you summarise it, Jhana4, for those of us who haven't got an hour's worth of interest in the subject?
TIA,
Kim
I can try

1. Some yogis in the 50s and some hippies in the 60s brought Hatha yoga to the west with some philosophy/religion still attached to it desiring to teach it because it was a cool thing.

2. Many people found the techniques of hatha yoga a big enhancement to their lives and did not care for the religious aspects so much.

3. Hatha yoga became mainstream and popular.

4. A number of aggressive teachers are making it into a significant money making enterprise, getting legal, getting corporate and getting nasty.

5. The spiritually orientated yoga teachers who originally brought it over think this is sad and wrong. The money orientated teachers and the exercise-freak orientated yogis don't care.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Alex123
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Alex123 »

There are suttas which say:

""[4] The Dhamma should be taught with the thought, 'I will speak not for the purpose of material reward.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"One should not make the Dhamma a trade."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Monks, there are these five forms of stinginess. Which five? Stinginess as to one's monastery [lodgings], stinginess as to one's family [of supporters], stinginess as to one's gains, stinginess as to one's status, and stinginess as to the Dhamma. These are the five forms of stinginess. And the meanest of these five is this: stinginess as to the Dhamma."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Goofaholix
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Goofaholix »

kirk5a wrote:I think if someone wants to teach Dhamma to such an extent that they have no time for a normal job, then let them show their commitment and ordain. And complete their own training in the process, how about that? Unless you believe in lay arahants, I don't.

The Dhamma is not for a layperson to sell because they need to "eat" I think the notion is rotten. No way can I see the Buddha giving sanction to such a thing. If the Dhamma isn't for the ordained to sell, it sure as heck isn't for laypeople to sell.

By which of course I am not saying that laypeople should not teach, or that there doesn't need to be recovery of costs for a retreat or meditation center. However, that's a separate matter from costs related to supporting the teacher.
That's a very narrow view, I don't believe lay teachers in the insight meditation/Theravadin tradition teach because they need to "eat" at all, I don't think anybody teaching with that attitude would last long.

They teach because they love the practise and one doesn't have to ordain to prove that, I haven't noticed anyone getting rich this way. The fact is lay teachers have a lot more time and flexibility to teach than monastics do. Some lay teachers can teach retreats back to back virtually all year round wheras most monastics don't, except those that head Burmese style meditation centres.

The primary job of the Theravadin monastic is to work on their own enlightenment, teaching is not their primary job though some make it so I guess.

In my country I'd estimate that for every retreat taught by a monastic there are more than 10 taught by a lay person in the insight meditation/Theravadin tradition, I think anywhere in the west would be the same. If these lay people weren't allowed to teach then these retreats simply wouldn't happen and we'd miss out as a result.

As for the distinction between dana and fees I think we are lucky that in our tradition lay teachers are able to rely on dana to support them in fulltime teaching, I've never felt I've been asked to pay a fee (other than accommodation etc) and if people didn't think a teacher was any good they wouldn't support him/her.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by mikenz66 »

I agree! :goodpost:

:anjali:
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kirk5a
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by kirk5a »

Alex123 wrote: "One should not make the Dhamma a trade."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:goodpost:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
danieLion
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by danieLion »

I do not know if my perception is typcial but as a newcomer it turns me off.
Kaktus
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kaktus »

Probably my viewpoint may help within this discussion.

In the last years i spent a good amount for different projects. A big part went to the upkeep of a local sangha. At that time they asked for some generous people to help as there was temporary not enough income through dana to hold the rooms. Beside myself one other person anonymously helped out for about a year until the income increased and no further help was necessary.

But times changes and at the moment there is not so much money available to be as generous as in earlier times.

Now i´m planing to go on an retreat in July. I know right now, that i can´t pay the amount that is suggested from the organizer. The course is offered only for dana, no other fee.I´m very aware of this fact but the question is to accept not paying as much as would be perfect or not to go at all. And i decided to go. So you can call me a parasite now.

But this will be my first retreat. And it was complicated to generally get the free time. With travel costs (not really much) and loss of earnings during the retreat i spend more than i probably could afford.

From birthday and xmas presents i´ve saved some cash and will be glad to give it to the organizer. I could also get some money out the the housekeeping costs. But in this way my family would have to suffer from my very own cravings for a retreat. It should be clear that i don´t spend much money for my own desires. Ever so often i put some cash aside that would otherwise be spend for a DVD or novel. I also don´t drink or smoke or have any other expansive hobbies.

And to top it all i´ve just donated half of the saved cash for another purpose. One which i think is most important right now. So even less is over for the retreat.

All this, and the retreat as a whole, wouldn´t be possible for me if there were a fee. I intend to donate later whatever is missing to the suggested amount. Or more, whatever will be possible.

Am i a bad person therefore? Should i have postponed a real heart's desire to go on a retreat up till i´ll have enough revenue but almost surely no time to go for?
English isn´t my native language. So please accept my apologies for my kind of spelling and grammar ;-)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by tiltbillings »

Kaktus wrote: The course is offered only for dana, no other fee.I´m very aware of this fact but the question is to accept not paying as much as would be perfect or not to go at all. And i decided to go. So you can call me a parasite now.
Not at all. You give, in good faith, what you can. No need to make yourself feel guilty about this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
rowyourboat
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

Goof seems to be agreeing with Kirk, from what I could understand.

So people seem generally against the idea of lay dhamma teachers going full time and being paid a fee/salary for it. I think.. I guess I wouldn't mind even that, as long as the content of their message isn't influenced by the payment. I am surprised I must admit that more people aren't concerned that they will be sold flowery ineffectual 'dharma', which would sell better, than the real thing warts and all.
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pilgrim
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by pilgrim »

Godwin Samararatne of the Nilambe Meditation Centrre in Kandy was one of the most well-known lay teachers in recent times. He taught for more than 20 years at the Centre. Does anyone know the model that was used there to sustain his teaching?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin_Samararatne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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adosa
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by adosa »

pilgrim wrote:Godwin Samararatne of the Nilambe Meditation Centrre in Kandy was one of the most well-known lay teachers in recent times. He taught for more than 20 years at the Centre. Does anyone know the model that was used there to sustain his teaching?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin_Samararatne" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nilambe.org/practical.html

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
rowyourboat
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

A mixture of foreign exchange currency and local donations seems to be sufficient.

Also similar arrangement here:

http://www.nirodhatrust.org/NT/Home.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Matheesha
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pilgrim
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by pilgrim »

The website states that some payment is expected from those who make use of the teachings and facilities at the Centers. Can we then assume that the management of the center then pays some money, however small to the teacher? I believe it'll be difficult for a layman to commit so much time to teaching, if his expenses directly incurred in teaching, plus perhaps additional sums to cover normal expenses of living a lay life are not taken care of.
danieLion
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by danieLion »

Jhana4 wrote:

4. A number of aggressive teachers are making it into a significant money making enterprise, getting legal, getting corporate and getting nasty.
Hi Jhana4,
I agree. Were you thinking of any teachers in particular?
Daniel
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