Paid dhamma teachers

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Kim OHara
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kim OHara »

kirk5a wrote:What's the problem with how things are now, as you described above? Are there more demands for this teacher's time, being made by students? If not, why does she need to spend more time on teaching, and thereby have a financial problem?
The demands have gradually increased over the last three (to my knowledge) years and there are constantly opportunities to do more that she has to let pass because her 'spare' time is already over-committed.
Even without such new commitments, the current state of affairs is barely satisfactory. You probably know yourself that someone whose time is chronically a little over-committed (whatever they are doing), is usually a bit stressed and often a bit rushed. When you see someone in that state because of the community work they are willingly accepting, the impulse is to help, isn't it? That's why I'm interested in your (i.e. everyone's, not just kirk5a's) answers.
:namaste:
Kim
rowyourboat
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Kim,

Look at Piya Tan, full time lay dhamma teacher, fully supported by the Singaporean lay community:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piya_Tan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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kirk5a
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by kirk5a »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Even without such new commitments, the current state of affairs is barely satisfactory. You probably know yourself that someone whose time is chronically a little over-committed (whatever they are doing), is usually a bit stressed and often a bit rushed. When you see someone in that state because of the community work they are willingly accepting, the impulse is to help, isn't it?
I appreciate the wish to help, however is her stressing and rushing truly a matter of external conditions?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Kim OHara
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kim OHara »

kirk5a wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote: Even without such new commitments, the current state of affairs is barely satisfactory. You probably know yourself that someone whose time is chronically a little over-committed (whatever they are doing), is usually a bit stressed and often a bit rushed. When you see someone in that state because of the community work they are willingly accepting, the impulse is to help, isn't it?
I appreciate the wish to help, however is her stressing and rushing truly a matter of external conditions?
No, in that she freely accepts the dhamma teaching role and the wife role and the wage-earner role.
Yes, in so far as the demands of those competing roles slightly exceed the time available. Another (similarly over-committed) friend of mine used to joke that she would do the extra stuff on 'Tuesday B' but we all know there is really only one Tuesday in each week.
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Kim
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kirk5a
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by kirk5a »

Yes, of course, who has time? Who has time? But then if we do not ever take time, how can we ever have time?
- the Merovingian in The Matrix Reloaded
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
unspoken
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by unspoken »

hope he/she got a job for supporting his/her life. And give dhamma teachings in the other half time
morning mist
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by morning mist »

I would say that she is doing a good job and lives for the welfare of both herself and others as the Buddha mentioned in the sutta below. A role model lay practitioner . More advance lay practitioner can follow her example to share the dhamma with others. If people benefit from her gift of the dhamma then they should donate to show their support for her time and effort. But I don't think it is a good idea to set a price or fee.

“And how, Lord, does a lay follower live for his own welfare but not for the welfare of others?”
“If, Mahānāma, a lay follower has faith, virtue and generosity himself, but does not encourage others in gaining faith, virtue and generosity; if he himself likes to visit monks and to listen to the good Dhamma, but does not encourage others to do so; if he himself retains in mind the teachings heard and carefully examines the meaning of those teachings, but does not encourage others to do so; if, having understood both the letter and the meaning, he himself lives in conformity with the Dhamma, but does not encourage others to do so—in such a case, Mahānāma, a lay follower lives for his own welfare but not for the welfare of others.”

“And how, Lord, does a lay follower live for the welfare of both himself and others?”
“If, Mahānāma, a lay follower himself has faith, virtue and generosity, and also encourages others in gaining them; if he himself likes to visit monks and to listen to the good Dhamma, and he also encourages others to do so; if he himself retains in mind the teachings heard and carefully examines their meaning, and he also encourages others to do so; if, having understood both the letter and the meaning, he himself practises in accordance with the Dhamma and also encourages others to do so—in such a case, Mahānāma, a lay follower lives for the welfare of both himself and others.”- Anguttara Nikaya

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Kim OHara
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kim OHara »

Thank you, morning mist and unspoken.
morning mist wrote:If people benefit from her gift of the dhamma then they should donate to show their support for her time and effort. But I don't think it is a good idea to set a price or fee.
The difficulty here - in Australia - is that we have no tradition of donating to the teacher in circumstances like this, so donations, as I said before, go to charity once expenses (photocopying, venue hire, etc) have been paid, although I'm sure the students would be happy enough for some of their money to go to the teacher.
Piya Tan's example (thanks, rowyourboat) is inspiring but is not a close parallel: as a ex-monk he was basically continuing his existing work, starting from a high-profile position and with a strong support base.

:namaste:
Kim
rowyourboat
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

I am beginning to think that any reward, material or otherwise can at some level, corrupt the message- it is not a problem if you are teaching beginners dhamma, but if it is teaching anicca, dukkha, anatta (vipassana) then the message can get watered down, diluted and loose it's ability to allow true deep disenchantment, dispassion to take place. The tendency would be to simply go with samsaric flow and dish out what the dhamma punters want to hear. :thinking:

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morning mist
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by morning mist »

rowyourboat wrote:I am beginning to think that any reward, material or otherwise can at some level, corrupt the message- it is not a problem if you are teaching beginners dhamma, but if it is teaching anicca, dukkha, anatta (vipassana) then the message can get watered down, diluted and loose it's ability to allow true deep disenchantment, dispassion to take place. The tendency would be to simply go with samsaric flow and dish out what the dhamma punters want to hear. :thinking:
This is one of my concern as well. Another thing is I am sure some have seen Indian Gurus charging 5000 US dollar for retreat. 500 dollars for a 2 day workshop or retreat. Let's keep it the way the Buddha set it up so we don't end up with this kind of thing.
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morning mist
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by morning mist »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
The difficulty here - in Australia - is that we have no tradition of donating to the teacher in circumstances like this, so donations, as I said before, go to charity once expenses (photocopying, venue hire, etc) have been paid.
Hi Kim,

I bet the venue hire cost is the heaviest. What if advance lay practitioners like her hold the event outdoor in nature, similar to the teachings that the Buddha held. This is what the following group did and I thought that is such a fun idea. It was first started by Tricycle. Also, maybe she can contact local forest monasteries to let her gather with others and study the dhamma there on weekdays. Someone has done that too.

http://preciousmetal.wordpress.com/2011 ... s-smiling/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, in monasteries where there are buildings available to give talks many teachers still give talks beneath the trees . It can be very peaceful and pleasant to listen to dhamma talk followed by a guided meditation session outdoors. People have a chance to spend time in nature. Also , it is very suitable for walking meditation. Even if people don't enjoy the talk, just sitting outdoor is pleasant enough.

I think the park or beach can be fun. Walking meditation on the surf is wonderful. All people need to bring is a small beach mat and cushion. Maybe someone from the group can sell some drinks and snacks for tea breaks. She might want to get together with a few other advance lay practitioners .

A group I went to offered free snacks and tea after guided meditation & walking meditation , right before dhamma talk. That makes the event even more relaxing and enjoyable. It makes me want to donate to support all the services they have given.

These days we are used to being indoors , between the four walls. We are so cut off from nature. Since there is an environmental issue going on, connecting with nature can also serve to motivate people to conserve it.

I think the idea jumpstarted by Tricycle is great, what do you think.

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rowyourboat
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by rowyourboat »

Wow, Morning mist, that sounds amazing! I think I have found the Buddhist version of standing on a soap box in a street corner (from another angle)!

Thank you Tricycle!

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Kim OHara
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Kim OHara »

Hi, morning mist,
I don't think you understand what our circumstances are here:
morning mist wrote:Also, maybe she can contact local forest monasteries to let her gather with others and study the dhamma there on weekdays.
I live in a provincial city in Queensland. There are perhaps 300 000 people living within a 500 km radius of us, and less than 1000 - probably *much* less - would identify as 'Buddhist' - of any tradition. The nearest monastery - of any tradition - that I know of is more than 1000 km away. We organise a weekend retreat every year with a visiting teacher, getting about thirty participants who travel as much as 400 km to attend. This is not like Thailand or Singapore; it is not even like Europe where most people are non-Buddhists but people live much closer to each other and can still get together easily. I think one of the reasons there are (comparatively) so many Australians on DW is that we are so isolated in real life.

The rest of your post is great - lovely suggestions and I will share them with others here.

:namaste:
Kim
morning mist
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by morning mist »

Hi Kim and rowyourboat,
I wasn't aware that there are hardly any vihara in your area. Just ignore the idea of conducting it at one of the vihara.

I am glad you guys like the idea of Outdoor Nature Retreat from Tricycle. The first time I read about it, I wish these events occur more often and in more locations each weekends. It resonates with the simple Forest style.

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Jhana4
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Re: Paid dhamma teachers

Post by Jhana4 »

Here is another perspective. I was reading Ven Dhammika's "The Broken Buddha" this morning. He mentioned that at one time the average Burmese family gave 40% of their income to the Sangha via Dana. According to the book this is not odd in Asia nor is that money going to keep monastics in luxury ( a frequent complaint in this thread is paid Dhamma teachers possibly getting rich ) while many of the people in their community live in poverty. In addition to that the author claims that monastics discourage people from reading the suttas, learning the dhamma and meditating or even believing that they can be liberated.

40% of your income?

That shifted my perspective on how I would view a "suggested donation" I'm not thrilled with paying for a retreat.

My ideal would the dhamma taught through a modernized Buddhist order though.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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