i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

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i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby wolf1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:10 pm

forum mebers,

i am a woman but i like women. is it really bad? it seems like a bad karma since i often feel that i have a harder life than heterosexual persons, and if anybody is other than normal it can brings some difficulties in the person's life.
and since it is a bad karma then is gay and lesbian sex are bad to the mind - and makes the Path slower?
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:40 pm

You are committing no transgression, nor offence against the Dhamma.

As far as i am aware - but I'm pretty sure I'm right - nowhere, in the Tripitaka does homosexual love contradict or fly against the Buddha's teachings.
Even an ordained person, who is homosexual, must be celibate, but this would in any event, cover any ordained members, no matter what their persuasion.

Please try to relax.
This isn't like a Theistic religion, where homosexuality is condemned and considered sinful.

Some Mahayana Schools declare it to be unskillful, and that homosexuals should refrain form intercourse, but this is more indicative of inserted dogma, and not an original teaching.

I await correction; but homosexuality is not covered by the 3rd precept, in any significant or specific manner, of this I am sure.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby waterchan » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:47 pm

Heterosexual desire and homosexual desire enjoy pretty much exactly the same kind of treatment in Buddhism.

I'll leave it to the non-lazy people in the forum to pull out the references for you. :tongue:
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:56 pm

I like that....! I am non-lazy!

Read this article, in particular the pargraph headed "ancient India"...

He avoids unlawful sexual intercourse, abstains from it. He has no intercourse with girls who are still under the protection of father or mother, brother, sister, or relative; nor with married women, nor female convicts; nor lastly with betrothed girls.


Girls 'still under the protection of...." Would be those who are still under-age.
The remainder are self-explanatory.

Other than that - it's a big world out there, so don't worry....! :thumbsup:
Last edited by TheNoBSBuddhist on Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:namaste:

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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby wolf1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:58 pm

a teacher (i don't say name) told it to me that it is bad......
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby cooran » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:02 pm

Hello all,

This article should give the relevant answers:

Homosexuality and Theravada Buddhism by A.L. de Silva
http://www.buddhanet.net/homosexu.htm

With metta,
Chris
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:09 pm

wolf1 wrote:a teacher (i don't say name) told it to me that it is bad......


Well in that case, the teacher's instruction to you, is not skillful:

This from the Link cooran posted:

As homosexuality is not explicitly mentioned in any of the Buddha's discourses (more than 20 volumes in the Pali Text Society's English translation), we can only assume that it is meant to be evaluated in the same way that heterosexuality is. And indeed it seems that this is why it is not specifically mentioned. In the case of the lay man and woman where there is mutual consent, where adultery is not involved and where the sexual act is an expression of love, respect, loyalty and warmth, it would not be breaking the third Precept. And it is the same when the two people are of the same gender. Likewise promiscuity, license and the disregard for the feelings of others would make a sexual act unskillful whether it be heterosexual or homosexual. All the principles we would use to evaluate a heterosexual relationship we would also use to evaluate a homosexual one. In Buddhism we could say that it is not the object of one's sexual desire that determines whether a sexual act is unskillful or not, but rather the quality of the emotions and intentions involved.


It's a good, scholarly and informative article.

Please don't feel guilty.
I personally am of the opinion that the teacher is most incorrect to admonish you in this way, or indicate that it is wrong. In doing so, it is possible this teacher is showing their own bias.

Hold on though:
Is it a Mahayana Teacher, or Theravada?
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby wolf1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:30 pm

Theravada.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:31 pm

wolf1 wrote:forum mebers,

i am a woman but i like women. is it really bad? it seems like a bad karma since i often feel that i have a harder life than heterosexual persons, and if anybody is other than normal it can brings some difficulties in the person's life.
and since it is a bad karma then is gay and lesbian sex are bad to the mind - and makes the Path slower?


Why would it be bad? Do you intend to hurt other women? Or do you want love and sex as any other human being? As long as the people involved (two, or more) are consenting adults, it's no one's business to judge.

If there's any recomendation to practice celibacy, it's for the purpose of making the path easier, because there's not so much indulgence in desire and craving. In this respect, wether the sex is homosexual or heterosexual is irrelevant. And celibacy is not the norm for lay buddhists.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby martinfrank » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:37 pm

(I am a gay man)

Lord Buddha taught how to end suffering. He taught a practice. If Lord Buddha gave the serial murderer Angulimalo a chance then why should you worry because you are a lesbian?

I have experienced that Buddhists monks generally are relaxed regarding sexual orientation. I have visited many Thai monasteris together with gay friends and never experienced an akward moment. There are many "ex-gay" monks and "ex-lesbian" nuns. "ex-gay" and "ex-lesbian" because monks and nuns are expected to lead a non-sexual and non-erotic life.

Heterosexual sex and homosexual sex are equally not contributing to liberation. Lord Buddha taught how to end suffering, not how to continue the human race.

Depending on the country and society you live in, some Buddhist monks, nuns and lay people may have prejudices against GLBT persons. Not because they are Buddhists, but because they are Chinese, Sinhalese, Thais, Burmese etc. None of us is only Buddhist, we are all conditioned by the country where we grew up.

I also was told by simple folks that bad karma causes one to be born gay. Being gay, I found love and happiness. What kind of bad karma is this? I had loving, educated, middle class parents. What kind of bad karma is this? Being gay forced me to start thinking for myself at an early age. Is this bad karma?

Heterosexuals too get born, get sick, get old, suffer and die. To be born blind is bad karma. To be born poor is bad karma. To be born with little intelligence is bad karma. Lord Buddha taught that to be born a human being and to hear the Teaching is a great chance. You must have lots and lots of good karma to be born today and having heard the Teaching. Let's use our chance and not worry about a little bad karma.

The Fourfold Path is neither longer nor shorter for you because you are a woman who loves women. Isn't being different forcing us to have the courage to be different not only in sexual orientation but also to meditate instead of watching TV, to eat vegetarian food... to be Buddhist and to be serious about it?

May all beings be happy!
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:38 pm

wolf1 wrote:Theravada.


Well in that case, I am accurate in my accounts. And Modus.Ponens puts it both succinctly and bang on the button.

You now have a choice:
Either tell this teacher that after extensive reading and research you find his opinion biased and flawed, or (perhaps more skillfully and wisely) be respectful, and completely ignore what he said on the matter.

Either way - hopefully, we have helped allay your fears.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby wolf1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:45 pm

maybe. thanks. but he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby LXNDR » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:49 pm

the problem is clinging and attachment, not their object
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:51 pm

I'm sorry, but I am calling BS on this.

And I'm the NoBS Buddhist.

How in heaven's name does he know??

And honestly, with everyone here telling you that he's wrong, giving you references, teachings and articles to PROVE to you that he is wrong - why are you still giving him any credence whatsoever??

Quit making excuses or putting forward reasons - He is wrong!!

Is he ordained..?
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby wolf1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:54 pm

HE IS A THERA MONK
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby culaavuso » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:01 pm

wolf1 wrote:maybe. thanks. but he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.


The suttas do describe consequences of sexual misconduct, but a preference for sexual activity with the same sex does not seem to match the description given.

AN 8.40: Apāya­saṃvattanika Sutta wrote:Sexual misconduct, repeatedly pursued, developed, and cultivated, is conducive to hell, to the animal realm, and to the sphere of afflicted spirits; for one reborn as a human being sexual misconduct at minimum conduces to enmity and rivalry.


The suggested focal point for attention given in the suttas is the four noble truths and the eightfold path. Conjecture about past lives does not seem to be particularly helpful to the path.

AN 4.77: Acinteyya Sutta wrote:The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.


MN 2: Sabbāsava Sutta wrote:This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'
...
The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention.
...
He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:04 pm

wolf1 wrote:HE IS A THERA MONK



WELL SHAME ON HIM!!
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby daverupa » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:10 pm

wolf1 wrote:maybe. thanks. but he told to me that i did adultery in a past life and this is the reason.


Please consider how this sort of specificity is probably only vexing & not at all descriptive in any case.

Sexual orientation involves spectra of human behavior, not modules of human categorization. This latter approach is usefully classificatory at times, but quickly loses any real descriptive power as people are discussed in detail.

Please be at ease; one's attention to and relationship with sexuality has causes, but without worrying about the past specifics that led to here and now, put in place those specific motives that lead to dispassion and calm observation of this matter. Speculations about how one was in the past is not the way.

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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby wolf1 » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:16 pm

then why he did this conjecture?? :/ he teaches me sometimes and he did it with me. i don't understand.
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Re: i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

Postby daverupa » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:17 pm

wolf1 wrote:then why he did this conjecture?? :/ he teaches me sometimes and he did it with me. i don't understand.


Ask them for an explanation of their thinking.

:anjali:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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