i am a woman but i like women - is it really bad?

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

It is obvious English is not your primary language. That is in no way, a criticism. I'm sure i could not speak your language even half as well as you do mine!

But I am not entirely certain what you mean.

In any case, for him to claim anything about your negative past kamma and state in any certain way, that it's the reason for your homosexuality now, is both inaccurate and tactless.

If indeed, this is what happened.

I cannot help feeling the tale is changing its timbre... but again, this could well be a language problem.

[wolf1]

In any case, for him to claim anything about your negative past kamma and state in any certain way, that it's the reason for your homosexuality now, is both inaccurate and tactless.

why do you see it as a wrong doing? maybe he wanted just notice me. notice about i don't doing the same mistake again and again.... in this life and in the next lifes.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

For him to state categorically that your homosexuality now, is due to a negative kammic act in the past, is inaccurate, because nobody knows the workings of Kamma and nobody can declare the cause of present conditions in this way. It is sheer guesswork and supposition.

The Buddha himself urged us to not speculate on the workings of kamma because it is impossible to know kamma in any certain way.
Therefore, for him to tll you this, is what is known as 'scare-mongering' at worst, or his own assumptions, at best.

Now, if he said, "I don't know why you are a gay woman, perhaps it is due to past kamma...." that would be better - but still not true.

We cannot know what kamma brought us to the human realm, but it must have been very positive kamma, because to be born into the Human realm is a good opportunity and a fortuitous one also.
So for him to associate your homosexuality with something in a past life that was a negative action, is also wild speculation and should not be indulged in.

Please understand:

There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER WRONG with being gay.
There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER WRONG with preferring women to men.
There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER WRONG with you, or anything you do with regard to having a relationship with another woman.

Him wishing to bring it to your notice, I'm sure had good intention.
But he was still misguided, incorrect and tactless.
so many members here are telling you this.

yet you still wish to believe his negative impact on you?

I don't understand.

[manas]

I don't think what the monk said is in the suttas but I'm pretty sure it's in the Vinaya and perhaps in the Commentaries. All of which are more or less part of Theravada and should be taken into at least partial consideration.

I'm not concerned with what anyone in this thread with strong personal opinions have to say on the issue. This isn't the Open Dhamma or Lounge section of the forum. The issue is whether the monk's statement was justified from the Theravadin perspective of that monk's tradition. And the jury is still out on that one.

As I said before, whether we could somehow sift through commentaries and eventually find some passage (ie: NOT the Buddha's words) to justify the inappropriate comment by that monk, is not the most important issue here. Look at the very first post here, and the title of this topic. Someone came to us for help and support. Overwhelmingly, members offered her support. It should have been left at that. But instead, someone ended up leaping in to actually defend that monk. I am extremely disappointed about that. This topic, given the context - a member reaching out for some help and support - should have remained that way, and not have turned into an argumentative topic. There is no argument. Homophobia is wrong, we are moving beyond that superstition now, and just because someone wears a yellow robe doesn't make his inner, hidden prejudice any less wrong than the inner, hidden prejudice of so many other ordinary folk. There is simply no excuse for what the monk said to wolf, and no excuse for anyone here defending what that monk said. No matter who they happen to be.

I don't want this topic to just get locked by some mod, just cos it got a bit heated and uncomfortable. No, this topic must go back to being what it started out so well as - members expressing their virtually universal support of wolf, and dismissal of the nonsense spoken by the monk who upset her.

I understand that some monks can be very learned, but lack 'people skills'. I think that might be an issue here. Because almost no regular member of society nowadays, apart from homophobes and/or adherents of Abrahamic faiths, would try to justify what that monk said to wolf. They mostly know that, that attitude is born of archaic prejudices, and that globally, we are moving past those old prejudices, slowly but surely. Just to be clear, I am not accusing any member here of homophobia, but merely drawing attention to perhaps a lack what is commonly termed as 'people skills', in the specific context of commenting on this particular issue.

There will come a day where being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender won't even elicit a raised eyebrow, because it will all merely be seen as part of the rich and diverse spectrum of human sexuality. It will just be considered as normal and as natural as heterosexuality, which it is, for those who have that orientation. But we are not there yet.

So once again, I ask that any justification whatsoever of what the errant monk said to wolf, be abandoned, especially considering this context: that someone has come to us for help, and that we still live in a society where homophobia is, sadly, still alive and well, although dying a slow death. That trumps any need to nitpick through commentaries etc just to find a way to somehow justify an ignorant and factually untrue comment made by a member of our Order of monks, who simply got it wrong that day. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, just that he got it wrong that day. There is no place for homophobia in our modern society, and as I feel we ought to be leaders in virtue for others, we have a responsibility to lead by example, by totally abandoning it here at DW. It's not a sign of bad kamma to be born gay or lesbian. That attitude is born of superstitious nonsense that as a society, we are leaving behind. And remember, we have no record whatsoever of any negative statement regarding queer folk, from the Buddha himself.

As I said earlier, I am quite happy being the way I am, I feel no sense of being punished in any way. I stand with our member wolf, in support, and I hope all other members can openly continue to do so as well. That's the only appropriate response in this particular situation, in a modern society.

manas.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Some members here are posting their own opinions as facts in a way that is misguided, incorrect, and tactless. Any topic is going to be contentious if some claim that only their view is true, and that all others are false.

The elder monk is not here to defend himself, so it is only right to defend him from accusations of being wrong, unskilful, tactless, and homophobic.

His statement about homosexuality being a result of unwholesome kamma is correct according to the Commentaries. Whether that statement of the Commentaries is true or false according to fact is merely a matter of speculation and opinion, which those stating their own opinions as facts advise others to avoid. The texts (not the Commentaries) do categorically state that the diversity of human beings is the result of diversity of kamma, and there is no denying the undesirability of short-life, disease, ugliness, powerlessness, poverty, ignoble birth, and lack of intelligence, while their opposites are desirable.

Homosexuals do experience prejudice, intolerance, and ostracism in nearly all societies. I do not hold such prejudices, but many in society do, more so in some countries than in others. If there is a bad result, then it has unwholesome kamma as its cause. How any individual experiences a given result is also due to their own kamma, so someone with great wisdom, but no wealth, for example, may still be contented, while one with great wealth, but little wisdom may be very unhappy.

As wolf1 stated in the beginning:

it seems like a bad karma since i often feel that i have a harder life than heterosexual persons, and if anybody is other than normal it can brings some difficulties in the person's life.

The real question here is how to make best use of the hand that has been dealt to us as a result of our past kamma, not to speculate over what might have been different, but to accept one's situation as one finds it. I doubt if there is anyone here who has not been bullied at school or faced prejudice at some time in their lives, whatever their sexual preference. The Buddha's teaching on kamma is not fatalism — kamma is both the cause of our difficulties (kammadāyādā) and the refuge by which we can overcome them (kammappaṭisaraṇā).

As the Sayādaw U Thitila says in What Kamma Is:

As we in the past have caused ourselves to be what we now are, so by what we do now will our future be determined. A knowledge of this fact and that the glory of the future is limitless, gives us great self-reliance, and takes away that tendency to appeal for external help, which is really no help at all. ‘Purity and impurity belong to oneself, no one can purify another" says the Buddha.

[manas]

His statement about homosexuality being a result of unwholesome kamma is correct according to the Commentaries.

Hello Bhante,

yes but we have no record whatsoever of THE BUDDHA saying any such thing. Once again, I ask that you please consider the context of this topic - that someone who is in a commonly vilified section of society, and has come here reaching out for some help and support, needs us to be sensitive to that, and not quote things that the Buddha never said. Can we not just be supportive in this particular situation?

manas.

[Mr Man]

His statement about homosexuality being a result of unwholesome kamma is correct according to the Commentaries.

Hi Bhante, Can we have a link or a reference please?

[Modus.Ponens]

In any case, for him to claim anything about your negative past kamma and state in any certain way, that it's the reason for your homosexuality now, is both inaccurate and tactless.

why do you see it as a wrong doing? maybe he wanted just notice me. notice about i don't doing the same mistake again and again.... in this life and in the next lifes.

It would be wrong doing for a monk to claim to know your past, because a monk cannot claim to have psychic powers. It's against the monastic rules. And if he actualy claimed that, and it turned out to be wrong, it is reason for expulsion from the monastic order, if I'm not mistaken.

I just hope he holds that opinion because of the same reason Bhikkhu Pesala holds the same opinion: they both have faith in the commentaries. That's their personal belief and we can respect it and not agree at the same time. The commentaries were not written by the Buddha. The commentaries are not infalible _ far from it.

So, again, do not worry about being lesbian. You are not hurting anyone! It's actualy the opposite. People are hurting you!

[purple planet]

We all have bad "kamma" (which is mixed here with vipaka which is what the monk meant) so it seems legit that being gay is "bad vipaka(not kamma)"

and the monk could easily said that being a jew is also bad vipaka - and that would be fine

what was the reason ? maybe the monk thought that wolf needs to hear what he said - maybe that was skilful talk


I do think that it is clear that no one said that gays are "bad" and we dont know the situation and what made the monk say what he said

like someone here said : a monk told him if he will meditate all night he will see divas - and it wasnt true - but the fact he stayed awake helped him a lot in life

i think that when wolf1 will return she would be able to share a bit more - on the conversation maybe (if she wants)

the monk didnt say she would advance slower cause shes gay - thats wolf1 thoughts

god knows i got confused by some dhamma advice in the past and still do - a lot

not saying the monk is right !!!!! - but i think that from the knowledge we all have no one can say his wrong either

also to consider is he might have told wolf1 - to ask him whatever she wants anytime - (like her teacher) and didnt expect her to go on forums to ask about it - maybe he could have thought it could help solve something like a porn addiction !!

plus im not sure i think this is a talk for a new thread - but lets say he is an arahant with some good super powers - which make him good enough to know her past kamma but not good enough to know he shouldnt tell her that - possible ?

[manas]

wolf is a member not only of this Forum, but of a commonly vilified section of society, and as any ordinary psychologist would agree, I ask that members please consider this in any future posts.

thank you

[purple planet]

i think its all in consideration all can see previous posts - and wolf1 has seem to have seen them and bahnte Pesala has also seen them

and its clear from them that

1 - being gay is not bad !

2 - being gay is not making bad kamma

3 - being gay does not slow progress


and we all dont know the situation with the monk and should'nt judge him - and i am aware that monks can be wrong - i think we could all explain stuff to wolf1 without assuming stuff about that monk (not talking about anyone in particular )

why do you see it as a wrong doing? maybe he wanted just notice me. notice about i don't doing the same mistake again and again.... in this life and in the next lifes.

some info is missing - is this monk her teacher ? if so maybe he said what he said out of care ?

how did he say it - with loving kindness ? was he asked about it " why am i gay ? " ?


i am trying to be consider the situation thats why i only commented now - but i think there is a big chance this is all a big misunderstanding - and explaining to wolf the logic is the best way - i think

buttom line : (wolf1 quotes)

about adultery..... maybe he told it because he wanted notice me. notice about i will be careful in the future. by the way, he is a very wise and kind Monk teacher. Sadhu. i believe and i hope that he wanted just notice me.

EVERYBODY. i talked with the Monk who i said. at the old time he told that it is bad that sex with other's partner and it can brings the hell to me. but now i asked him and he told that homosexual sex is not bad. so i misunderstood him. and i am sorry. but he told again that the karma is adultery.

but now i asked him and he told that homosexual sex is not bad. so i misunderstood him. and i am sorry. but he told again that the karma is adultery.

to be honest - i might be babling above with all i wrote - i forgot why i started to post in this thread and it was because i saw this line

so i misunderstood him

and it seemed to slip away to everyone

[mikenz66]

Thread locked for review.


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

The topic is being re-opened, but moved (at least temporarily) from the Ethical Conduct section to the Open Dhamma Hot Topics section.

The implication of this is that any posts made will require moderator approvable before they become visible to others. Hopefully that will help prevent the topic spiralling off in inappropriate directions as it has done recently.

If you do wish to post, please be respectful of the fact there are many "lenses" through which this subject may be viewed (e.g. sutta-vinaya, commentarial, psychological, socio-political, personal experience) and that just because someone is viewing the subject through a different lens, doesn't mean their view is inherently wrong, dangerous or inappropriate... please be tolerant of the well-intended postings of others.

Thank you.

Metta,
Retro.

[No_Mind]

It took me an hour to find where I had heard it but here it is -

Ajahn Brahm says gay sex is perfectly normal and acceptable in Buddhism (from 43:30 min). It is an amazing talk, btw on Buddhism in general

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjeFZoQYTPs

Dalai Lama says that gay sex is sexual misconduct

[Ceisiwr]

Women have to endure the effects of menstruation and childbirth. Gay men and women have to endure the additional suffering of rejection by their own parents or siblings, social ostracism, prejudice and discrimination in the workplace, and oppression from unjust laws in many countries. Those who know Buddhism well are neither sexist nor homophobic. They understand that sexual desire is the cause of birth, and that from birth the whole mass of suffering arises. Whether one is heterosexual, homosexual, or celibate, sexual desire leads to suffering.

As I gay man I don't experience any of that, so it seems your theory is flawed.