masturbation what's wrong?

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby daverupa » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:53 pm

knighter wrote:i think i'll just carry on trying my hardest to gain awareness into everything i do and when i fail ill
pick myself up and start again.


Delightful!

(34, soon enough)
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:23 pm

ihrjordan wrote:"This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." ----------DIRECT QUOTE or is somebody going to argue that it was a later addition? :quote:


If it is a direct quote then please provide the source, as per our TOS.
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby SDC » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:56 pm

I know I'm not a mod, but just wanted to throw it out there since it has happened more than once in this thread that when quoting others posts you should review it closely for the proper quote codes before submitting otherwise a post could be very confusing.
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:03 pm

SDC wrote:I know I'm not a mod, but just wanted to throw it out there since it has happened more than once in this thread that when quoting others posts you should review it closely for the proper quote codes before submitting otherwise a post could be very confusing.

I agree. The "Preview" button at the bottom of the posting text box is really helpful. Press that before hitting the "Submit" button which is right next to it.

Plz. :bow:
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:06 pm

http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=117 "Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." Again I still don't know why most of you are defending your stance to last breath, I feel like if I was arguing on a side that said you shouldn't drink alcohol and I didn't want to promote the use of alcohol as per his question you would agree with me but why is it it so different with masturbation?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:13 pm

Reductor wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:Cool! But no one is promoting masturbation. We are just not condemning it. That's all.

I have no beef with the view that indulgence in any sensual pleasures is incompatible with nibbana.[/q
"What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real." -Dan
"Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do :tongue:"-Reductor


My post was a joke about being addicted to booze verses addicted to adultery, the doing of either being a violation of the five precepts -- in contrast to wanking, which is not a violation of any five precepts. (this joke goes back to OP where op is inquires if a fault that doesn't violate the core precepts of virtue is worse than a fault which does violate the core precepts of virtue.)

You are on about arousing and sustaining even a bit of lust through the engagement in masturbation. Yet lay people, like me and most everyone here, were expected to entertain defilement by the buddha, which is why fewer rules were laid down and training was less exhaustive.

Yet you suppose we ought to train as vigilantly as monks or nuns, which is more or less impossible while maintaining family, work, and social duties, all of which can arouse heaps of defilement. Get real.

As to being attacked, as you claim you are: you took the posts with which you disagreed as signs that this forum was off track regarding dhamma, and that our standards are too lax, and that with dhamma it was all or nothing.

That seemed awfully defensive, and is rather offensive (and akusala).

More like you've idealized the dhamma and have an idealized vision of the practitioner you wish to be, and are faulting the rest of us for having simpler and more modest aspirations.

But oh well.

But what is wrong with what I did? Because I personally feel like practice shouldn't be just some sort of hobby you can do on the side I'm the bad guy? I've been told countless times that meditation and the buddhas path is a lifestyle to be cultivated and sooner or later perfected. Because my goals are high and I don't think it's right to give someone false ideas about the benefits and healthiness of masturbation I'm in the wrong?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:04 pm

ihrjordan,

I have repeatedly asked you to clarify and support some of the contentions you have made rather vehemently, but you have refused to do so. For you convenience I have copied them for you below. It certainly would help your position if you would be kind enough answer questions put you, especially if you want people to answer question you put to them.


    you made a rather extensive claim about self-pleasuring.

    ihrjordan:
      It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.

    I'd like to know where this list comes from. Certainly it does not come from the suttas, since the Buddha did not proscribe self-pleasuring for the lay-person. You seem to accept "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults (which I assume include homosexuality as well), but for some reason self-pleasuring is abnormal, in you opinion. Based upon what?


    ihrjordan wrote:...and what do you mean says who? how could masturbation from a buddhist perspective have any benefit at all?
    Does "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults have any benefit at all? The Buddha certainly did not say: no "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults.

Aloka's question to you waits to be answered: "What makes you certain of all this, ihrj ? How many of other people's relationships, sexual habits and mental states do you have first hand knowledge of at the age of 19 ?

Awaiting your answers.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Reductor » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:17 pm

ihrjordan wrote:
Reductor wrote:
My post was a joke about being addicted to booze verses addicted to adultery, the doing of either being a violation of the five precepts -- in contrast to wanking....

But what is wrong with what I did? Because I personally feel like practice shouldn't be just some sort of hobby you can do on the side I'm the bad guy? I've been told countless times that meditation and the buddhas path is a lifestyle to be cultivated and sooner or later perfected. Because my goals are high and I don't think it's right to give someone false ideas about the benefits and healthiness of masturbation I'm in the wrong?


Jordan,

I'm 31 this month. I've been applying Buddhist teaching to my life for 16 years. There hasn't been a single philosophy or group of practices so important to my life as dhamma, and it is not a hobby. Sometimes I've practiced like a lay monk, other times just enough to keep me on the rails. But I've learned that, as a lay person, I have to apply the teachings in a way that alleviates distress, not compounds it.

I've practice restraint with masturbation, and have practiced meditations to control lust, like the graveyard contemplation and the 32 parts. In fact, the 32 part contemplation was my favorite for quite a while.

Anyway, I know you're meaning well, but you're also showing a lack of experience and consideration for your fellow dhamma practitioners by painting them as hobbiests and as lax simply because they approach this topic differently from you.

Peace.

EDIT: one last point: at points in your posts you seem to suggest masturbation is inherently linked to porn, but it isn't. Porn might always lead to masturbation, but masturbation needn't have any relation to porn. And of the two, porn really is a horrible thing for me, and never appeases any of my lust but only makes me more unhappy. Masturbation doesn't leave me in such sad straights as porn does. And... there we go, I won't go into detail as I don't want to gross people out ;)
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby SDC » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:00 pm

:goodpost:
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:04 pm

Reductor wrote:......

Anyway, I know you're meaning well, but you're also showing a lack of experience and consideration for your fellow dhamma practitioners by painting them as hobbiests and as lax simply because they approach this topic differently from you.

Peace.

EDIT: one last point: at points in your posts you seem to suggest masturbation is inherently linked to porn, but it isn't. Porn might always lead to masturbation, but masturbation needn't have any relation to porn. And of the two, porn really is a horrible thing for me, and never appeases any of my lust but only makes me more unhappy. Masturbation doesn't leave me in such sad straights as porn does. And... there we go, I won't go into detail as I don't want to gross people out ;)


:goodpost:

Very good points, worth noting.
Thanks for mentioning these factors.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:12 pm

ihrjordan wrote:http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=117 "Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." Again I still don't know why most of you are defending your stance to last breath, I feel like if I was arguing on a side that said you shouldn't drink alcohol and I didn't want to promote the use of alcohol as per his question you would agree with me but why is it it so different with masturbation?

Note that this statement is addressed to a Bhikkhu, who has taken on a life of renunciation. So it is an offence against the monastic rules.

:anjali:
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:40 pm

ihrjordan wrote:.... I feel like if I was arguing on a side that said you shouldn't drink alcohol and I didn't want to promote the use of alcohol as per his question you would agree with me but why is it it so different with masturbation?


One reason is because there is demonstrably a world of difference between indulging in Alcohol and masturbation.
The two simply defy comparison.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:10 pm

Reductor wrote:Anyway, I know you're meaning well, but you're also showing a lack of experience and consideration for your fellow dhamma practitioners by painting them as hobbiests and as lax simply because they approach this topic differently from you.

:goodpost:

I think you mean well too, Jordan. :hug:

~~~

mikenz66 wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=117 "Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." Again I still don't know why most of you are defending your stance to last breath, I feel like if I was arguing on a side that said you shouldn't drink alcohol and I didn't want to promote the use of alcohol as per his question you would agree with me but why is it it so different with masturbation?

Note that this statement is addressed to a Bhikkhu, who has taken on a life of renunciation. So it is an offence against the monastic rules.

:anjali:
Mike

Yes. The Buddha had much higher standards for his bhikkhus than his lay followers. Part of the reason I don't feel ready for a monastic life is because I feel I would be unworthy of the robe at this present juncture. It is one thing to not follow the Buddha's teachings as perfectly and ideally as possible as a householder. It is quite another to do that as a monk.; and much worse, I think.

Dhammapada wrote:307. There are many evil characters and uncontrolled men wearing the saffron robe. These wicked men will be born in states of woe because of their evil deeds.

308. It would be better to swallow a red-hot iron ball, blazing like fire, than as an immoral and uncontrolled monk to eat the alms of the people.

...

311. Just as kusa grass wrongly handled cuts the hand, even so, a recluse's life wrongly lived drags one to states of woe.

...

313. If anything is to be done, let one do it with sustained vigor. A lax monastic life stirs up the dust of passions all the more.
Peace,
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:00 am

You know what? nevermind everyone. I didn't intend for this carry on like this, It's interfering with my practice at the moment and I wouldn't want it to interfere with yours. Whether I'm in the wrong or not it's not worth pushing my viewpoint anymore while causing unneeded stress and besides I didn't join Dhamma wheel to make enemies.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:23 am

ihrjordan wrote:You know what? nevermind everyone. I didn't intend for this carry on like this, It's interfering with my practice at the moment and I wouldn't want it to interfere with yours. Whether I'm in the wrong or not it's not worth pushing my viewpoint anymore while causing unneeded stress and besides I didn't join Dhamma wheel to make enemies.


Good idea to step away for a while.

I think everybody here has nothing but good will towards you, and you've not made any enemies. Arguments sometimes get a bit heated, that's all. Most of us have been on both sides, so it's no biggie.

Once you are cool with it, you might want to reread a few posts and see if you can find something useful for yourself - after all there are many experienced practitioners here who've faced the sort of stuff you're facing.

And whether you or me, every moment is an opportunity to practice.
_/|\_
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Reductor » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:06 am

ihrjordan wrote:You know what? nevermind everyone. I didn't intend for this carry on like this, It's interfering with my practice at the moment and I wouldn't want it to interfere with yours. Whether I'm in the wrong or not it's not worth pushing my viewpoint anymore while causing unneeded stress and besides I didn't join Dhamma wheel to make enemies.


This is practice, Jordan. If you didn't invest yourself so much in your view, you wouldn't have disparaged others, and wouldn't now feel uncomfortable.

And I mean you no ill-will or anything. I think your perspective on masturbation is important for others to hear. You may even be right. But you didn't allow that you may be wrong, and that's the trouble, as far as I can see.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:26 am

Since the self pleasure or drink? thread has pretty much runs it course, it has been merged with the catchall masturbation what's wrong? thread. The topic is still open for discussion. See the guidelines for this section: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=20017
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:53 pm

I find it ironic that you tell me to respect others opinions but yet you're very critical of mine.. Like I said I'm not hating anyone for there opinion I just don't think it's right to promote what in my mind and similarly the Buddhas mind is an unwholesome act. And thank you for the grammar check at the end I'm sure that little line was done with utmost compassion.



Sexual desire is let go of gradually, however a vow of celibacy certainly helps this practice.


However insight can still be gained while living as a householder, even if one engages in sexual activity.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: masturbation what's wrong?

Postby phil » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:37 am

Dear all

I haven't written about masturbation for at least four years. Where does the time go? Down the drain, I say down the drain. Seriously, for any man (I can't speak for women's sexuality) wishing to maintain a celibate lifestyle, regularly scheduled masturbation I would say once a week is wise. As a fascinating exercise in how gross( vs.?refined) the pleasure of orgasm is try it without additional fantasizing just as a physical release for the body's health and to prevent built up lust just as defecation prevent other kinds of unhealthy buildups. Seems absolutely sensible.

I think the real danger is pornography, it's pornography that stirs up and defiles the mind and leads to unwise pre-occupations, not masturbation. And that can include sexual fantasies which are often just echoes of pornography. So look at the pornography/fantasies not the physical act of masturbation which is not that different from defecation. I haven't read the thread so I don't know if people are advocating that young men abstain completely from masturbation but if you are it's absolutely insane and irresponsible, in my opinion. prostate suffers, increases risk of cancer, lust builds up, Mara lurks eaiting for a chance to sell some pleasures which actually burn but seem great at the time because the mind has been allowed to sink in their direction. "Keep the mind upright, have a wank every fortnight." Quotation marks unnecessary since I just made it up.

Have a poop, have a wank, have a pee
and live life wholesomely.
Sing along with me
Have a poop have a wank have a pee

Phil
P.S do you know how the Buddha talked about eating to satisfy the body's needs and get rid of a bad feeling without creating a new feeling, the same could be said of masturbation.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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