masturbation what's wrong?

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daverupa
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby daverupa » Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:59 pm

ihrjordan wrote:I'm not opposed to or "afraid" of sensuality as you say.


I didn't say you were. I set that idea aside with a --- mark, apart from your quote altogether.

All I'm saying is instead of indulging in the objects of your desire, try learning about them! You will come to see they do not bring you happiness and EVENTUALLY you will WANT to give them up naturally.


Agreed.

I'm very surprised that most of you are taking a stance on this that is similar to that of a modern counselor.... What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. So why is it any different with masturbation nevermind alcohol?


It isn't.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it has it's place..


Again, this wasn't said, it's what you built up for yourself. I said that healthy human sexuality falls on a very broad spectrum of suitable social & private expressions. Activity in line with the Dhamma, while also on a spectrum from lay to monastic, is indeed that which inclines towards renunciation, and this also falls under the 'healthy' set.

here I was trying to promote the renunciate path without scaring him off by saying that it would be better to give up masurbation and stick with what society would call "normal sensuality" as a way of limiting yourself w/o driving yourself crazy by way of repression..


Indeed, the extremes of uhealthy repression and wanton indulgence are not helpful; seeing clearly for oneself is a primary concern, as we agree.

how is this an unwholesome act on my part again?


Again, this wasn't said.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Dan74 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:35 pm

ihrjordan wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Oh no, not another masturbation thread!

C'mon people!! Most young people these days are addicted to porn, with the attendant fantasies interfering with their relationships, normal sensuality, etc. What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real.

Didn't you just name the harm of the "occasional wank"? and then you say what's the harm in it....you contradicted yourself in a matter of two sentences. It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not. This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION. :tantrum:


No, I didn't, lhrjordan. I contrasted the reality where there is rampant sexual addiction of all sorts with occasional jerking off.

You seem to tie masturbation with all sorts of unwholesomeness, all sorts of accretions, but this is far from necessary. It can be just a natural relief of sensual urges of the body, very simple and unaffected. And building up all sorts of negativity on top of it is far more harmful than the act itself.

And what related story? Since when is Dhammapada about masturbation?

My point in this and other related threads is that there are too many demons around sexuality, too much 'extra stuff'. This is by far the biggest problem and one has little or no chance of renouncing sexuality in a wholesome way, if one doesn't come to terms with it first.
_/|\_

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:51 am

ihrjordan wrote:It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.
Says who?

This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION.
Self-pleasuring is not mentioned in the commentary.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.
Says who?

This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION.
Self-pleasuring is not mentioned in the commentary.

The Story of Thera Seyyasaka

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (117) of this book, with reference to Thera Seyyasaka.

Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." oh really? courtesy of tipitika.net....and judging from this thread most of you seem like you have the view that you can become enlightened while still indulging in pleasures of the sense....I'm surprised honestly
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:55 am

daverupa wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:I'm not opposed to or "afraid" of sensuality as you say.


I didn't say you were. I set that idea aside with a --- mark, apart from your quote altogether.

All I'm saying is instead of indulging in the objects of your desire, try learning about them! You will come to see they do not bring you happiness and EVENTUALLY you will WANT to give them up naturally.


Agreed.

I'm very surprised that most of you are taking a stance on this that is similar to that of a modern counselor.... What most of you are saying is the same thing as when a counselor tells someone to "hit a pillow when you get angry" and I'm sure that most of us would agree that's not how one should handle a problem. So why is it any different with masturbation nevermind alcohol?


It isn't.

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it has it's place..


Again, this wasn't said, it's what you built up for yourself. I said that healthy human sexuality falls on a very broad spectrum of suitable social & private expressions. Activity in line with the Dhamma, while also on a spectrum from lay to monastic, is indeed that which inclines towards renunciation, and this also falls under the 'healthy' set.

here I was trying to promote the renunciate path without scaring him off by saying that it would be better to give up masurbation and stick with what society would call "normal sensuality" as a way of limiting yourself w/o driving yourself crazy by way of repression..


Indeed, the extremes of uhealthy repression and wanton indulgence are not helpful; seeing clearly for oneself is a primary concern, as we agree.

how is this an unwholesome act on my part again?


Again, this wasn't said.

You seem to be nitpicking horribly...you said "healthy" which is another way of saying normal, natural, not frowned upon by society, good for you. w.e. you know what I'm saying...and I fail to see how masturbation is healthy in any way please elaborate what does it do thats beneficial for you as opposed to the unwholesomeness it brings? And you said "not a wholesome deed" ok well if it's not wholesome then what is it?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:07 am

Dan74 wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Oh no, not another masturbation thread!

C'mon people!! Most young people these days are addicted to porn, with the attendant fantasies interfering with their relationships, normal sensuality, etc. What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real.

Didn't you just name the harm of the "occasional wank"? and then you say what's the harm in it....you contradicted yourself in a matter of two sentences. It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not. This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION. :tantrum:


No, I didn't, lhrjordan. I contrasted the reality where there is rampant sexual addiction of all sorts with occasional jerking off.

You seem to tie masturbation with all sorts of unwholesomeness, all sorts of accretions, but this is far from necessary. It can be just a natural relief of sensual urges of the body, very simple and unaffected. And building up all sorts of negativity on top of it is far more harmful than the act itself.

And what related story? Since when is Dhammapada about masturbation?

My point in this and other related threads is that there are too many demons around sexuality, too much 'extra stuff'. This is by far the biggest problem and one has little or no chance of renouncing sexuality in a wholesome way, if one doesn't come to terms with it first.

this related story...http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=117 and instead of relieving yourself with masturbation why not relieve yourself with meditation instead? imo you don't have to dismiss masturbation but you certainly don't have to promote it either.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:11 am

"This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." ----------DIRECT QUOTE or is somebody going to argue that it was a later addition? :quote:
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:17 am

lhrjordan wrote:.and judging from this thread most of you seem like you have the view that you can become enlightened while still indulging in pleasures of the sense....I'm surprised honestly


I'm not sure if I am included in this "most of you", but if you read posts carefully, I don't think anyone is saying anything of the sort.

Specifically I said:

My point in this and other related threads is that there are too many demons around sexuality, too much 'extra stuff'. This is by far the biggest problem and one has little or no chance of renouncing sexuality in a wholesome way, if one doesn't come to terms with it first.


Dhamma practice as I far as I can make out, is about working with this very moment as it is. When sexual urges arise, we train to be aware of them arising. Not train to arouse aversion or revulsion, especially not as lay people. As we cultivate mindfulness and equanimity, the urges may subside and indeed go away, in the meantime we develop as much awareness and clarity about it as possible and act (or not act) appropriately. But you seem to be dealing in aversion and repression. This just leads to more suffering rather than liberation.

As for the story about the Thera, firstly the Buddha wisely set up different rules and precepts for monastics to lay people. Masturbation is only an offense for monks, not for the lay. Secondly this 'was in the habit of masturbating' could mean many things. Did the Thera find a quiet secluded place once or twice a month to relieve himself or did he merrily jerk off multiple times a day in front of others? I have no idea. I suspect it was more towards the latter, otherwise it would not have even come to the Buddha's attention.

People deal with their sensuality differently and with sustained practice one may come to naturally abstain from masturbation. But for lay people, 99% of the time, it is healthier to find an appropriate partner, learn to care for one another and support each other's practice, than force or foist this abstention upon oneself prematurely. This just fans the flames of aversion.
_/|\_

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:36 am

ihrjordan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.
Says who?

This is a buddhist forum but yet some of you are encouraging masturbation when the goal of buddhism is the complete opposite...renunciation! You're supposed to encourage him in doing good things that will truly make him happy and not delude him by saying "oh every now and then is fine" Verse 121 of the Dhammapada : Think lightly not of evil,
‘It will not come to me’,
for by the falling of water drops
a water jar is filled.
The fool with evil fills himself,
he soaks up little by little. And I kid you not the related story to this verse is about MASTURBATION.
Self-pleasuring is not mentioned in the commentary.

The Story of Thera Seyyasaka

While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (117) of this book, with reference to Thera Seyyasaka.

Once there was a thera by the name of Seyyasaka, who was in the habit of masturbating. When the Buddha heard about this, he rebuked the thera for doing something that would lead one farther away from the attainment of Magga and Phala. At the same time, the Buddha laid down the discipline prohibiting such indulgence in sexual pleasures, i.e., Samghadisesa Apatti, offences which require penance and suspension from the Order. Then, the Buddha added, "This kind of offence can only lead to evil results in this world as well as in the next." oh really? courtesy of tipitika.net....and judging from this thread most of you seem like you have the view that you can become enlightened while still indulging in pleasures of the sense....I'm surprised honestly
Verse 117 is not verse 121.


And you did not answer my question above ("Says who?) in response to your claims that: "It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:44 am

Why is it that you and daverupa try to correct me and nit-pick at every turn? Both of you seem to have this heir of superiority because of admin/moderator status..Ok i got the verse it was tied to wrong just as you got it wrong by saying there was no such thing in the commentaries...and what do you mean says who? how could masturbation from a buddhist perspective have any benefit at all? You're planting the seed of greed in your mind and watering it to the fullest extent and since I'm sure the person isn't doing the act to a speech on world peace, I'm 100% sure their mind is negatively impacted based on the smut they watch...there is absolutely nothing you can say that would cause me to believe that masturbation has any beneficial reason to act.
Last edited by ihrjordan on Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:54 am

Dan74 wrote:
lhrjordan wrote:.and judging from this thread most of you seem like you have the view that you can become enlightened while still indulging in pleasures of the sense....I'm surprised honestly


I'm not sure if I am included in this "most of you", but if you read posts carefully, I don't think anyone is saying anything of the sort.

Specifically I said:

My point in this and other related threads is that there are too many demons around sexuality, too much 'extra stuff'. This is by far the biggest problem and one has little or no chance of renouncing sexuality in a wholesome way, if one doesn't come to terms with it first.


Dhamma practice as I far as I can make out, is about working with this very moment as it is. When sexual urges arise, we train to be aware of them arising. Not train to arouse aversion or revulsion, especially not as lay people. As we cultivate mindfulness and equanimity, the urges may subside and indeed go away, in the meantime we develop as much awareness and clarity about it as possible and act (or not act) appropriately. But you seem to be dealing in aversion and repression. This just leads to more suffering rather than liberation.

As for the story about the Thera, firstly the Buddha wisely set up different rules and precepts for monastics to lay people. Masturbation is only an offense for monks, not for the lay. Secondly this 'was in the habit of masturbating' could mean many things. Did the Thera find a quiet secluded place once or twice a month to relieve himself or did he merrily jerk off multiple times a day in front of others? I have no idea. I suspect it was more towards the latter, otherwise it would not have even come to the Buddha's attention.

People deal with their sensuality differently and with sustained practice one may come to naturally abstain from masturbation. But for lay people, 99% of the time, it is healthier to find an appropriate partner, learn to care for one another and support each other's practice, than force or foist this abstention upon oneself prematurely. This just fans the flames of aversion.

AGAIN I am not opposed to sensuality you don't have to deny it but you don't have to promote it as well. I said INSTEAD of doing it just meditate on the body or another meditation to calm down the urge and you will find you're better off without it. And if you absolutely cannot hold back do w.e. to come back to reality "hint hint" But as I said I'm trying not to promote it as I'm sure plenty of people will see this thread, and for you guys to say "yeh go ahead and wank whenever. it's all good and it's healthy.. you're good man!!" is really imo ridiculous for a community of people in one way or another on the path of renunciation to delude newcomers and beginners alike.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:02 am

ihrjordan wrote:Why is it that you and daverupa try to correct me and nit-pick at every turn?
The above was my first posting this thread, which hardly constitues trying to correct you at every turn. secondly, you made a rather extensive claim about self-pleasuring.

    It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.

I'd like to know where this list comes from. Certianly it does not come from the suttas, since the Buddha did not proscribe self-pleasuring for the lay-person. You seem to accept "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults (which I assume include homsexuality as well), but for some reason self-pleasuring is abnormal, in you opinion. Based upon what?

Both of you seem to have this heir of superiority because of admin/moderator status
Not at all. Simply trying to understand your point of view.

..Ok i got the verse it was tied to wrong just as you got it wrong by saying there was no such thing in the commentaries
I never said that was no reference to self-pleasuring in the commentaries, just not in the commentary to Dhp verse 121, at least in my books.

...and what do you mean says who? how could masturbation from a buddhist perspective have any benefit at all?
Does "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults have any benefit at all? The Buddha certainly did not say: no "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults.

You're planting the seed of greed in your mind and watering it to the fullest extent and since I'm sure the person isn't doing the act to a speech on world peace
And likely "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults is not done to "a speech on world peace" either.

I'm 100% sure their mind is negatively impacted based on the smut they watch...there is absolutely nothing you can say that would cause me to believe that masturbation has any beneficial reason to act.
Opinions vary.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:03 am

ihrjordan wrote:AGAIN I am not opposed to sensuality you don't have to deny it but you don't have to promote it as well. I said INSTEAD of doing it just meditate on the body or another meditation to calm down the urge and you will find you're better off without it. And if you absolutely cannot hold back do w.e. to come back to reality "hint hint" But as I said I'm trying not to promote it as I'm sure plenty of people will see this thread, and for you guys to say "yeh go ahead and wank whenever. it's all good and it's healthy.. you're good man!!" is really imo ridiculous for a community of people in one way or another on the path of renunciation to delude newcomers and beginners alike.

Jordan,

Expecting anonymous people you have never met before on an internet forum that anyone can join (phew!) to share the same high level of puritanism that you seem to expect from them is unrealistic. People are entitled to express their opinions and there will always be those that chafe one the wrong way. How one reacts to that, whether with restraint or with explosion, is something that can be worked on.

And by the way, it's "air" of superiority, not "heir".
Peace,
James

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby culaavuso » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:16 am

Given the question from the OP, it seems appropriate to look at the Buddha's advice to lay people still enjoying sensuality.

AN 8.54: Byagghapajja Sutta wrote:I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling among the Koliyans. Now the Koliyans have a town named Kakkarapatta. There Dighajanu the Koliyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "We are lay people enjoying sensuality; living crowded with spouses & children; using Kasi fabrics & sandalwood; wearing garlands, scents, & creams; handling gold & silver. May the Blessed One teach the Dhamma for those like us, for our happiness & well-being in this life, for our happiness & well-being in lives to come."
...
And what does it mean to be consummate in virtue? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from stealing, abstains from illicit sexual conduct, abstains from lying, abstains from taking intoxicants that cause heedlessness. This is called being consummate in virtue.


It appears that a lay person who still enjoys sensuality is considered consummate in virtue if they abstain from intoxicants and illicit sexual conduct. In other suttas there are more explicit definitions of illicit sexual conduct given:

AN 10.176: Cunda Sutta wrote:He gets sexually involved with those who are protected by their mothers, their fathers, their brothers, their sisters, their relatives, or their Dhamma; those with husbands, those who entail punishments, or even those crowned with flowers by another man.


Complete renunciation of sensual pleasures is part of the teaching for those who can practice well in such circumstances. However, it appears that such an admonition was not given to everyone the Buddha counseled, such as when advising lay people who enjoy sensuality.

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:18 am

ihrjordan wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
lhrjordan wrote:.and judging from this thread most of you seem like you have the view that you can become enlightened while still indulging in pleasures of the sense....I'm surprised honestly


I'm not sure if I am included in this "most of you", but if you read posts carefully, I don't think anyone is saying anything of the sort.

Specifically I said:

My point in this and other related threads is that there are too many demons around sexuality, too much 'extra stuff'. This is by far the biggest problem and one has little or no chance of renouncing sexuality in a wholesome way, if one doesn't come to terms with it first.


Dhamma practice as I far as I can make out, is about working with this very moment as it is. When sexual urges arise, we train to be aware of them arising. Not train to arouse aversion or revulsion, especially not as lay people. As we cultivate mindfulness and equanimity, the urges may subside and indeed go away, in the meantime we develop as much awareness and clarity about it as possible and act (or not act) appropriately. But you seem to be dealing in aversion and repression. This just leads to more suffering rather than liberation.

As for the story about the Thera, firstly the Buddha wisely set up different rules and precepts for monastics to lay people. Masturbation is only an offense for monks, not for the lay. Secondly this 'was in the habit of masturbating' could mean many things. Did the Thera find a quiet secluded place once or twice a month to relieve himself or did he merrily jerk off multiple times a day in front of others? I have no idea. I suspect it was more towards the latter, otherwise it would not have even come to the Buddha's attention.

People deal with their sensuality differently and with sustained practice one may come to naturally abstain from masturbation. But for lay people, 99% of the time, it is healthier to find an appropriate partner, learn to care for one another and support each other's practice, than force or foist this abstention upon oneself prematurely. This just fans the flames of aversion.

AGAIN I am not opposed to sensuality you don't have to deny it but you don't have to promote it as well.


That's cool! Equanimity is the way to go!

I don't think anyone was promoting sensuality. What I promote is healthy sensuality over angst-ridden or dysfunctional one.

ihrjordan wrote:I said INSTEAD of doing it just meditate on the body or another meditation to calm down the urge and you will find you're better off without it. And if you absolutely cannot hold back do w.e. to come back to reality "hint hint" But as I said I'm trying not to promote it as I'm sure plenty of people will see this thread, and for you guys to say "yeh go ahead and wank whenever. it's all good and it's healthy.. you're good man!!" is really imo ridiculous for a community of people in one way or another on the path of renunciation to delude newcomers and beginners alike.


If someone needs to be told "it's all good and it's healthy.. you're good man!!" then it's really good to tell them that. But for others who are not angst-ridden about their sexuality and who tend to err on the side of over-indulgence, a different advice would be appropriate. It's horses for courses...
_/|\_

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Aloka
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Aloka » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:19 am

ihrjordan wrote: and judging from this thread most of you seem like you have the view that you can become enlightened while still indulging in pleasures of the sense....I'm surprised honestly


As far as I'm aware, the Buddha didn't tell lay practitioners they shouldn't have any sex at all.

..., and for you guys to say "yeh go ahead and wank whenever. it's all good and it's healthy.. you're good man!!" is really imo ridiculous for a community of people in one way or another on the path of renunciation to delude newcomers and beginners alike.


Lets not forget that the majority of people posting here are lay practitioners, (and some of us, like myself, are women), so therefore we aren't necessarily "on the path of renunciation" in the same way as monks and nuns. I also don't see anyone in this thread attempting to delude newcomers.

With respect, I think perhaps you need to to relax a little irjordan, DW is a discussion forum & if we all had identical views about everything there woldn't be anything to discuss!

:anjali:

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:30 am

Aloka wrote:
ihrjordan wrote: and judging from this thread most of you seem like you have the view that you can become enlightened while still indulging in pleasures of the sense....I'm surprised honestly


Where did anyone say this ?

..., and for you guys to say "yeh go ahead and wank whenever. it's all good and it's healthy.. you're good man!!" is really imo ridiculous for a community of people in one way or another on the path of renunciation to delude newcomers and beginners alike.


Lets not forget that the majority of people posting here are lay practitioners, (and some of us, like myself, are women), so therefore we aren't necessarily "on the path of renunciation" in the same way as monks and nuns. I also don't see anyone in this thread attempting to delude newcomers.

With respect, I think perhaps you need to to relax a litte irjordan, DW is a discussion forum & if we all had identical views about everything there woldn't be anything to discuss!

:anjali:

I posted my opinion on the matter and now literally everyone is at my neck on this "peaceful discussion" forum. I said neither one you should really do and everyone is telling me that I'm full of aversion and anger because of it...what? and I said it wasn't good to do, I didn't say you can't do it and even if I did who am i anyways.. and why are some of you so defensive regarding this? I understand that not everyone may agree with me and I accept that, it's just the way some of you are going about doing it leaves a little "friendliness" to be desired.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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ihrjordan
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:34 am

Mkoll wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:AGAIN I am not opposed to sensuality you don't have to deny it but you don't have to promote it as well. I said INSTEAD of doing it just meditate on the body or another meditation to calm down the urge and you will find you're better off without it. And if you absolutely cannot hold back do w.e. to come back to reality "hint hint" But as I said I'm trying not to promote it as I'm sure plenty of people will see this thread, and for you guys to say "yeh go ahead and wank whenever. it's all good and it's healthy.. you're good man!!" is really imo ridiculous for a community of people in one way or another on the path of renunciation to delude newcomers and beginners alike.

Jordan,

Expecting anonymous people you have never met before on an internet forum that anyone can join (phew!) to share the same high level of puritanism that you seem to expect from them is unrealistic. People are entitled to express their opinions and there will always be those that chafe one the wrong way. How one reacts to that, whether with restraint or with explosion, is something that can be worked on.

And by the way, it's "air" of superiority, not "heir".
I find it ironic that you tell me to respect others opinions but yet you're very critical of mine.. Like I said I'm not hating anyone for there opinion I just don't think it's right to promote what in my mind and similarly the Buddhas mind is an unwholesome act. And thank you for the grammar check at the end I'm sure that little line was done with utmost compassion.
Last edited by ihrjordan on Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"

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Aloka
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Aloka » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:35 am

everyone is telling me that I'm full of aversion and anger because of it...what?


Nonsense, where did I say you were "full of aversion and anger" ? :)



.

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:40 am

ihrjordan wrote:everyone is telling me that I'm full of aversion and anger .
I never said or implied that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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