masturbation what's wrong?

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:43 am

"In other words, fear and loathing of masturbation is not a proper motive, just as fear and loathing of sexuality in general is not proper"-Dave
"Not train to arouse aversion or revulsion, especially not as lay people"-Dan
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:everyone is telling me that I'm full of aversion and anger .
I never said or implied that.

It might be indirectly so but it's still being done by pretty much calling my point of view righteous, uptight or "puritan" as mkol puts it. To make my point clear all I'm saying is that it can't be good to promote masturbation as no good can come from it is that really so hard to understand? :cry: I get where most of you are coming from though and can respect what you have to say. I guess I'm just stuck in my "puritan" ways. call me old fashioned :quote:
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:56 am

ihrjordan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:everyone is telling me that I'm full of aversion and anger .
I never said or implied that.

It might be indirectly so but it's still being done by pretty much calling my point of view righteous, uptight or "puritan" as mkol puts it.
But I did not call or imply your 'point of view [was] righteous, uptight or "puritan".' I wanted some clarification of a particular stament you made, as to the origins of such ideas that you voiced, such as:

It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.


To make my point clear all I'm saying is that it can't be good to promote masturbation as no good can come from it is that really so hard to understand? I get where most of you are coming from though and can respect what you have to say. I guess I'm just stuck in my "puritan" ways. call me old fashioned
I understand what you are saying.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:00 am

ihrjordan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:everyone is telling me that I'm full of aversion and anger .
I never said or implied that.

It might be indirectly so but it's still being done by pretty much calling my point of view righteous, uptight or "puritan" as mkol puts it. To make my point clear all I'm saying is that it can't be good to promote masturbation as no good can come from it is that really so hard to understand? :cry: I get where most of you are coming from though and can respect what you have to say. I guess I'm just stuck in my "puritan" ways. call me old fashioned :quote:


Cool! But no one is promoting masturbation. We are just not condemning it. That's all.

I have no beef with the view that indulgence in any sensual pleasures is incompatible with nibbana.
_/|\_
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:06 am

ihrjordan wrote:"In other words, fear and loathing of masturbation is not a proper motive, just as fear and loathing of sexuality in general is not proper"-Dave
"Not train to arouse aversion or revulsion, especially not as lay people"-Dan
Dave and Dan are not "everyone."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:13 am

Funny thing that was a quote from dan originally I guess I just forgot the quotes. But regardless it holds true. That is how the mind works. If one decides to masturbate he has committed himself in those couple moments to unwholesomeness (as one will tell you it's damn near impossible to stop in the middle and say I actually won't do this) for those moments of pleasure you might intellectually think you have it under control but deep in your mind you have a perverted view that doing this will bring some sort of happiness which is a bad view to have. while watching you see some of the most base and vulgar things and while pleasuring yourself and seeing the material the mind agress upon it and deep down you say "yes, this is good" "this will bring me happiness " and so the mind intentionally or unintentionally tries to recreate the stimuli it recieved while receiving pleasure from masturbating with regard to sex. You try to recreate the things you see with your partner, you expect it to be somewhat the same as what you seen the time you pleasured yourself and then basically it snowballs. One might end up seeing women or men simply as objects to satisfy their sexual desires and we all know where that ends....Dying in a closet in a latex batman suit with a muzzle on " <-- I must thank my former south park addiction for that one" but then again the latter might not happen and they might find away to avoid the repercussions of perverting your mind but why take the risk? If you knew something would bring you suffering then why would you do it? again my opinion and I said everyone in the heat of the moment as to mean a couple people
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:16 am

Cool! But no one is promoting masturbation. We are just not condemning it. That's all.

I have no beef with the view that indulgence in any sensual pleasures is incompatible with nibbana.[/q
"What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real." -Dan
"Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do :tongue:"-Reductor
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:21 am

ihrjordan wrote:Funny thing that was a quote from dan originally I guess I just forgot the quotes. But regardless it holds true. That is how the mind works. If one decides to masturbate he has committed himself in those couple moments to unwholesomeness (as one will tell you it's damn near impossible to stop in the middle and say I actually won't do this) for those moments of pleasure you might intellectually think you have it under control but deep in your mind you have a perverted view that doing this will bring some sort of happiness which is a bad view to have.
And this is different from "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults? If so, how so?

while watching you see some of the most base and vulgar things and while pleasuring yourself and seeing the material the mind agress upon it and deep down you say "yes, this is good" "this will bring me happiness " and so the mind intentionally or unintentionally tries to recreate the stimuli it recieved while receiving pleasure from masturbating with regard to sex. You try to recreate the things you see with your partner, you expect it to be somewhat the same as what you seen the time you pleasured yourself and then basically it snowballs. One might end up seeing women or men simply as objects to satisfy their sexual desires and we all know where that ends....Dying in a closet in a latex batman suit with a muzzle on " <-- I must thank my former south park addiction for that one" but then again the latter might not happen and they might find away to avoid the repercussions of perverting your mind but why take the risk? If you knew something would bring you suffering then why would you do it? again my opinion and I said everyone in the heat of the moment as to mean a couple people
This reads as if you are talking about your own experiemnce; however, i see nothing here that says that this danger, as you perceive it, is how it is for everyone who self-pleasures.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:25 am

ihrjordan wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:AGAIN I am not opposed to sensuality you don't have to deny it but you don't have to promote it as well. I said INSTEAD of doing it just meditate on the body or another meditation to calm down the urge and you will find you're better off without it. And if you absolutely cannot hold back do w.e. to come back to reality "hint hint" But as I said I'm trying not to promote it as I'm sure plenty of people will see this thread, and for you guys to say "yeh go ahead and wank whenever. it's all good and it's healthy.. you're good man!!" is really imo ridiculous for a community of people in one way or another on the path of renunciation to delude newcomers and beginners alike.

Jordan,

Expecting anonymous people you have never met before on an internet forum that anyone can join (phew!) to share the same high level of puritanism that you seem to expect from them is unrealistic. People are entitled to express their opinions and there will always be those that chafe one the wrong way. How one reacts to that, whether with restraint or with explosion, is something that can be worked on.

And by the way, it's "air" of superiority, not "heir".
I find it ironic that you tell me to respect others opinions but yet you're very critical of mine.. Like I said I'm not hating anyone for there opinion I just don't think it's right to promote what in my mind and similarly the Buddhas mind is an unwholesome act. And thank you for the grammar check at the end I'm sure that little line was done with utmost compassion.

I didn't tell you to respect others' opinions - you are putting words into my mouth, just as you've tried to put words into the mouths of "everyone".

My point is that if you expect everyone to be as puritanical as you on an internet forum, then you will be disappointed. Your expectations of others are too high in this regard. That's my point.

The grammar check was for your own education, yes. I appreciate it when others point out egregious grammar or spelling errors (not typos) that I may make as it helps me get better at grammar and spelling. So I do it to help others get better as well. If you want to continue making the same error for the rest of your life, that's your prerogative. But at least now you have a choice to use what is correct.
Peace,
James
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:30 am

It's different because there are barriers, there is a sense of shame present if one goes overboard not the case when you go in a room all by yourself. and no that isn't from personal experience and how do you not see anything wrong? The key concept of Buddhism is the 8fold path relying on right view to cultivate all the other qualities of goodness and you see nothing wrong with having the view that pleasuring yourself alone- to something that even the lowest organisms on the planet act upon- to obtain a pleasurable feeling that lasts like 3 seconds -will bring you happiness....if you don't mind explaining I would love to read it
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby ihrjordan » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:34 am

And by the way, it's "air" of superiority, not "heir".
I find it ironic that you tell me to respect others opinions but yet you're very critical of mine.. Like I said I'm not hating anyone for there opinion I just don't think it's right to promote what in my mind and similarly the Buddhas mind is an unwholesome act. And thank you for the grammar check at the end I'm sure that little line was done with utmost compassion.[/quote]
I didn't tell you to respect others' opinions - you are putting words into my mouth, just as you've tried to put words into the mouths of "everyone".

My point is that if you expect everyone to be as puritanical as you on an internet forum, then you will be disappointed. Your expectations of others are too high in this regard. That's my point.

The grammar check was for your own education, yes. I appreciate it when others point out egregious grammar or spelling errors (not typos) that I may make as it helps me get better at grammar and spelling. So I do it to help others get better as well. If you want to continue making the same error for the rest of your life, that's your prerogative. But at least now you have a choice to use what is correct.[/quote]
Please read the other posts everyone was a heat of the moment way of saying some people.. w.e point is it happened and you saying that I cant expect everyone to agree with my puritan view point is a way of telling me I should respect others opinions is it not?
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Mkoll » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:43 am

ihrjordan wrote:Please read the other posts everyone was a heat of the moment way of saying some people.. w.e point is it happened and you saying that I cant expect everyone to agree with my puritan view point is a way of telling me I should respect others opinions is it not?

What I said there was a way of telling you: Your expectations of others are too high in this regard.
Peace,
James
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:48 am

ihrjordan wrote:It's different because there are barriers, there is a sense of shame present if one goes overboard not the case when you go in a room all by yourself. and no that isn't from personal experience and how do you not see anything wrong?
So, if it not from personal experience, how do you that what you are saying is an accurate reflection of reality? Again, I have asked you to support this astatement:

It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not.
How do you know this is true?

The key concept of Buddhism is the 8fold path relying on right view to cultivate all the other qualities of goodness and you see nothing wrong with having the view that pleasuring yourself alone- to something that even the lowest organisms on the planet act upon- to obtain a pleasurable feeling that lasts like 3 seconds -will bring you happiness....if you don't mind explaining I would love to read it
You answer my questions, and I'll be more than delighted to answer yours:

ihrjordan wrote:and what do you mean says who? how could masturbation from a buddhist perspective have any benefit at all?
Does "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults have any benefit at all? The Buddha certainly did not say: no "normal sensuality" among a consenting adults.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Reductor » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:07 am

ihrjordan wrote:Cool! But no one is promoting masturbation. We are just not condemning it. That's all.

I have no beef with the view that indulgence in any sensual pleasures is incompatible with nibbana.[/q
"What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real." -Dan
"Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do :tongue:"-Reductor


My post was a joke about being addicted to booze verses addicted to adultery, the doing of either being a violation of the five precepts -- in contrast to wanking, which is not a violation of any five precepts. (this joke goes back to OP where op is inquires if a fault that doesn't violate the core precepts of virtue is worse than a fault which does violate the core precepts of virtue.)

You are on about arousing and sustaining even a bit of lust through the engagement in masturbation. Yet lay people, like me and most everyone here, were expected to entertain defilement by the buddha, which is why fewer rules were laid down and training was less exhaustive.

Yet you suppose we ought to train as vigilantly as monks or nuns, which is more or less impossible while maintaining family, work, and social duties, all of which can arouse heaps of defilement. Get real.

As to being attacked, as you claim you are: you took the posts with which you disagreed as signs that this forum was off track regarding dhamma, and that our standards are too lax, and that with dhamma it was all or nothing.

That seemed awfully defensive, and is rather offensive (and akusala).

More like you've idealized the dhamma and have an idealized vision of the practitioner you wish to be, and are faulting the rest of us for having simpler and more modest aspirations.

But oh well.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Aloka » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:25 am

ihrjordan wrote: It interferes with their relationships, normal sensuality with their wife or girlfriend, perverts views of woman and countless other things...and when it's all said and done you just end up making your mind more restless and building up the cycle of addiction only to never be satisfied. I'm tired of people saying "oh just don't over do it" that's not possible, with masturbation you either are addicted or you're not



What makes you certain of all this, ihrj ? How many of other people's relationships, sexual habits and mental states do you have first hand knowledge of at the age of 19 ?





.
Last edited by Aloka on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:28 am

ihrjordan wrote:Cool! But no one is promoting masturbation. We are just not condemning it. That's all.

I have no beef with the view that indulgence in any sensual pleasures is incompatible with nibbana.[/q
"What's the harm of an occasional wank? Get real." -Dan
"Wanking should be fine, minus a rampant porn habit. Just don't get addicted to other men's wives, whatever else you do :tongue:"-Reductor


Not sure what you are trying to say by quoting these snippets, lhr...

But for what it's worth, I feel that metta-bhavana is the best practice at this point. It's an incredibly powerful thing to feel good will towards oneself and each other. The relevance here is that whether one overindulges or fears sexuality, a sense of good will towards oneself helps relinquish both the addiction and the fear. When I already feel OK with myself, I neither need so much, nor do I feel aversion to me and my body.
_/|\_
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby knighter » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:50 am

Sorry i asked
cheers
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:57 am

knighter wrote:Sorry i asked
cheers
knighter

All very exciting, but the question is, of course, what is your opinion on the matter now?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby knighter » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:04 pm

I've come from being a party person who drank and had much sex and wanked maybe twice a day, everyday.
To someone who might have 2 beers a week and a wank maybe ones a month, i think vipassana has helped me to become a lot
more subtle and i feel, when i think to much about passion and start to lose the balance of my mind and relieve myself
i become balanced again i smile and start over again and the distance seems to be further between wanks every time.
I just wanted peoples opinion on the matter i found no opinions just a mass of buddhist covered ego's.
Im not a monk, I'm a happy healthy family man.
i think i'll just carry on trying my hardest to gain awareness into everything i do and when i fail ill
pick myself up and start again.
cheers
knighter (39)
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Re: self pleasure or drink?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:38 pm

knighter wrote:I've come from being a party person who drank and had much sex and wanked maybe twice a day, everyday.
To someone who might have 2 beers a week and a wank maybe ones a month, i think vipassana has helped me to become a lot
more subtle and i feel, when i think to much about passion and start to lose the balance of my mind and relieve myself
i become balanced again i smile and start over again and the distance seems to be further between wanks every time.
I just wanted peoples opinion on the matter i found no opinions just a mass of buddhist covered ego's.
Im not a monk, I'm a happy healthy family man.
i think i'll just carry on trying my hardest to gain awareness into everything i do and when i fail ill
pick myself up and start again.
cheers
knighter (39)
Sounds exceptionally good to me. Thanks. Tilt (65).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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