anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

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anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:14 pm

this sutta includes insight techniques and also exposition of jhana and deep concentration. so it seems to use both techniques. i imagine one could just practice jhana with it and not insight or one could ignore the jhana stuff and just use it to enter access and do insight.

so as of right now i'm learning jhana and am wondering how to combine it with insight as jhana alone leads no where. if i practice this sutta then my meditation practice is complete, right?



thoughts?
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:45 pm

what happened to practising the satipatthana sutta?
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby alan... » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:53 pm

Cittasanto wrote:what happened to practising the satipatthana sutta?


satipatthana is my non cushion practice. still doing it. but my cushion practice is jhana which is mentioned in satipatthana so it's appropriate. however anapanasati sutta explains further into jhana sitting practice so i'm going to learn it too probably unless there is some reason i shouldn't. i think they compliment each other. once i memorize satipatthana sutta and finish "four foundations in plain english" by bhante g and then "satipatthana" by analayo i'm going to read up on anapanasati and memorize that sutta. i'm not wishy washy or anything. i've been studying satipatthana for four years with jhana as a side note. now that i've gotten fairly good at jhana i want to know where to go with it and there's a lot of conflicting ideas. the anapanasati sutta seems to tie them up nicely. i'm going to keep up the satipatthana practice as well though.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:12 pm

Remember that structured anapanasati practice is the highest expression of Satipatthana:

"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.


Anapanasati is the Buddha's Jhana, which of course develops samadhi and sati/samatha and vipassana together. So you can enter the first Jhana at the end of the first tetrad (when pitisukha begins to arise) and then proceed all the way to the fourth Jhana by the time you hit the final tetrad, where you can do the hardcore insight stuff "permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness." By the time you've completely and totally calmed the body, calmed piti and sukha, and completely gladdened/liberated the mind, it's hard to believe you wouldn't be in the fourth Jhana. But obviously you can also do a lighter version in the first Jhana, or an even lighter version without any form of Jhana.

Either way, the bottom line is that anapanasati is the most perfect form of satipatthana meditation, and it develops both samatha and vipassana together, the first three tetrads being primarily samatha supported by vipassana and the last tetrad being vipassana supported by samatha. Either way, you have both, and both can be perfected in Jhana.

Remember the Dhammapada:

There's no jhana for one with no discernment,
no discernment for one with no jhana.

But one with both jhana and discernment:
he's on the verge of Unbinding.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:13 pm

stick with it both on and off. use the anapanasati to help in specific areas (particularly the 2,3,4th tetrads) but stick with the one sutta for the time being as your main practice. the Satipatthana sutta is more than enough to work on with an eye on practice for the time being.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby marc108 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:19 pm

alan... wrote:this sutta includes insight techniques and also exposition of jhana and deep concentration. so it seems to use both techniques. i imagine one could just practice jhana with it and not insight or one could ignore the jhana stuff and just use it to enter access and do insight.

so as of right now i'm learning jhana and am wondering how to combine it with insight as jhana alone leads no where. if i practice this sutta then my meditation practice is complete, right?


my understanding is such:

the 4th tetrad is an insight practice to be done while in Jhana. the teachers I'm familiar with are using MN 111 as the process of insight while in jhana.

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.


MN 111:
Sutta translations:
(Bhikkhu Bodhis translation:) http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhikk ... _Sutta.htm
(others, click the flags) http://www.suttacentral.net/disp_result ... ld=acronym

Further reading and commentary:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part3-f

MN 118:
Bhikkhu Bodhis commentary:
http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-118.mp3
http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-118.mp3
http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-118.mp3
http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-118.mp3
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby alan... » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:10 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Remember that structured anapanasati practice is the highest expression of Satipatthana:

"And how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"[1] On whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, discerns, 'I am breathing out long'; or breathing in short, discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, discerns, 'I am breathing out short'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&... out sensitive to the entire body'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming bodily fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to rapture'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to pleasure'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to mental fabrication'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out calming mental fabrication': On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this — careful attention to in-&-out breaths — is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out sensitive to the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out satisfying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out steadying the mind'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out releasing the mind': On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of lapsed mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on inconstancy'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on cessation'; trains himself, 'I will breathe in...&...out focusing on relinquishment': On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.

"This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination.


Anapanasati is the Buddha's Jhana, which of course develops samadhi and sati/samatha and vipassana together. So you can enter the first Jhana at the end of the first tetrad (when pitisukha begins to arise) and then proceed all the way to the fourth Jhana by the time you hit the final tetrad, where you can do the hardcore insight stuff "permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness." By the time you've completely and totally calmed the body, calmed piti and sukha, and completely gladdened/liberated the mind, it's hard to believe you wouldn't be in the fourth Jhana. But obviously you can also do a lighter version in the first Jhana, or an even lighter version without any form of Jhana.

Either way, the bottom line is that anapanasati is the most perfect form of satipatthana meditation, and it develops both samatha and vipassana together, the first three tetrads being primarily samatha supported by vipassana and the last tetrad being vipassana supported by samatha. Either way, you have both, and both can be perfected in Jhana.

Remember the Dhammapada:

There's no jhana for one with no discernment,
no discernment for one with no jhana.

But one with both jhana and discernment:
he's on the verge of Unbinding.


a rousing speech. thank you!
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby alan... » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:12 am

marc108 wrote:
alan... wrote:this sutta includes insight techniques and also exposition of jhana and deep concentration. so it seems to use both techniques. i imagine one could just practice jhana with it and not insight or one could ignore the jhana stuff and just use it to enter access and do insight.

so as of right now i'm learning jhana and am wondering how to combine it with insight as jhana alone leads no where. if i practice this sutta then my meditation practice is complete, right?


my understanding is such:

the 4th tetrad is an insight practice to be done while in Jhana. the teachers I'm familiar with are using MN 111 as the process of insight while in jhana.

"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.


MN 111:
Sutta translations:
(Bhikkhu Bodhis translation:) http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhikk ... _Sutta.htm
(others, click the flags) http://www.suttacentral.net/disp_result ... ld=acronym

Further reading and commentary:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part3-f

MN 118:
Bhikkhu Bodhis commentary:
http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-118.mp3
http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-118.mp3
http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-118.mp3
http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-118.mp3


thanks for all the info. i love bhikkhu bodhi.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:38 pm

alan... wrote:...satipatthana is my non cushion practice. still doing it. but my cushion practice is jhana which is mentioned in satipatthana so it's appropriate.


That's similar to the approach I've been using recently - samatha / samadhi on the cushion, sati off the cushion.
About a year ago I did an intensive retreat based on the Anapanasati Sutta, and also read all the commentaries I could find. There seemed to be a wide variation in interpretation - the more traditional commentaries viewed the first 3 tetrads as focussing on jhana with the 4th tetrad as insight, while the more contemporary commentaries seemed to view the 4 tetrads primarily as an insight practice, similar to the 4 frames in the Satipatthana Sutta.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby alan... » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:51 am

porpoise wrote:
alan... wrote:...satipatthana is my non cushion practice. still doing it. but my cushion practice is jhana which is mentioned in satipatthana so it's appropriate.


That's similar to the approach I've been using recently - samatha / samadhi on the cushion, sati off the cushion.
About a year ago I did an intensive retreat based on the Anapanasati Sutta, and also read all the commentaries I could find. There seemed to be a wide variation in interpretation - the more traditional commentaries viewed the first 3 tetrads as focussing on jhana with the 4th tetrad as insight, while the more contemporary commentaries seemed to view the 4 tetrads primarily as an insight practice, similar to the 4 frames in the Satipatthana Sutta.


interesting food for thought. thanks. i often find ancient and modern commentaries at odds...
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:38 am

alan... wrote:
porpoise wrote:
alan... wrote:...satipatthana is my non cushion practice. still doing it. but my cushion practice is jhana which is mentioned in satipatthana so it's appropriate.


That's similar to the approach I've been using recently - samatha / samadhi on the cushion, sati off the cushion.
About a year ago I did an intensive retreat based on the Anapanasati Sutta, and also read all the commentaries I could find. There seemed to be a wide variation in interpretation - the more traditional commentaries viewed the first 3 tetrads as focussing on jhana with the 4th tetrad as insight, while the more contemporary commentaries seemed to view the 4 tetrads primarily as an insight practice, similar to the 4 frames in the Satipatthana Sutta.


interesting food for thought. thanks. i often find ancient and modern commentaries at odds...


I sometimes wonder whether the modern commentaries are watered down because the traditional approach just looks too difficult. ;)
On the retreat I did the approach was fairly contemporary, it felt like doing the 4 frames of Satipatthana but using the breath as an "anchor". Anyway, I've put the 4 tetrads on the back burner for the time being. For me samatha and vipassana feel like quite different practices, and trying to mix them up makes me feel confused.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Dmytro » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:05 am

Hi Alan,

alan... wrote:so as of right now i'm learning jhana and am wondering how to combine it with insight as jhana alone leads no where. if i practice this sutta then my meditation practice is complete, right?


The development of insight in anapanasati is described in Patisambhidamagga, in the description of the fourth tetrad:
http://bps.lk/olib/bp/bp502s.pdf

Since few people survived to comprehend this rather dense text, I will put it simply - the gist is to gradually expand from rise and fall of air contact to all the contemplations described in Chachakka sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Goob » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:05 am

alan... wrote:
so as of right now i'm learning jhana and am wondering how to combine it with insight as jhana alone leads no where. if i practice this sutta then my meditation practice is complete, right?


Also, check out the section 'Part Four: Advanced Practice' in the book 'With Each and Every Breath' by Thanissaro Bhikkhu which deals with how to use Jhana for insight: http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/EachAndEveryBreath_v130117.pdf

Personally I feel that the Jhana/insight dichotomy is a slightly false one, and based in a a not-so-necessary historical separation. This because insight more or less deals with understanding what the mind is up to, something which is also seems necessary to progress through more refined states of meditation and thus would be a fine example of discernment.

A common statement is that jhana is mere concentration and a tool for doing the really important stuff. However in order to access and master these states there needs to be an understanding of the factors of bodily, mental och verbal fabrication and other significant factors in dependent co-arising something which would result in insights if done properly, IMHO. Would this then not qualify as insight/discernment?
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:31 pm

Dmytro wrote:Since few people survived to comprehend this rather dense text, I will put it simply - the jist is to gradually expand from rise and fall of air contact to all the contemplations described in Chachakka sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So this is a conceptual process involving thinking?
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:34 pm

richard_rca wrote:A common statement is that jhana is mere concentration and a tool for doing the really important stuff.


In a way, though samadhi depends on a mind that is calm, content and free from the hindrances, easier said than done.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Goob » Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:01 pm

porpoise wrote:
richard_rca wrote:A common statement is that jhana is mere concentration and a tool for doing the really important stuff.


In a way, though samadhi depends on a mind that is calm, content and free from the hindrances, easier said than done.


I think you're missing my point. I'm saying that progressing through and mastering the jhanas is a work of insight/vipassana in itself because it would entail you working out how to lessen stress and suffering through understanding bodily/verbal/mental fabrication; i.e a major part of dependent co-arising.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Dmytro » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:33 am

porpoise wrote:
Dmytro wrote:Since few people survived to comprehend this rather dense text, I will put it simply - the gist is to gradually expand from rise and fall of air contact to all the contemplations described in Chachakka sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So this is a conceptual process involving thinking?


It rather involves absence of thinking, since samadhi helps to focus precisely on the contemplations.
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Re: anapanasati sutta both vipassana and jhana?

Postby Goob » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:40 pm

richard_rca wrote:
I think you're missing my point. I'm saying that progressing through and mastering the jhanas is a work of insight/vipassana in itself because it would entail you working out how to lessen stress and suffering through understanding bodily/verbal/mental fabrication; i.e a major part of dependent co-arising.


in which the validity I think is apparent from SN 111 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) and other suttas. So maybe, just maybe, and I'm no scholar, it's time to seriously rethink how we consider jhana and insight/discernment as separate practices most of the time, and to question the seemingly established wisdom of jhana as an optional, 'path-neutral' tool for something more important when the states themselves contain the seeds for insight.
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