No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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daverupa
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby daverupa » Tue May 07, 2013 9:22 pm


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Ben
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Ben » Tue May 07, 2013 10:52 pm

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frank k
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby frank k » Wed May 08, 2013 3:43 am

Zack,
I'm aware of the Vism. interpretation of kaya as whole "body of breath" for step 3 anapana. You are probably aware of the schools of Theravada that interpret step 3 as whole anatomical body. I'm not here to debate which interpretation is correct, believe whatever works for you. Whatever interpretation people believe, just for your reference consider the Chinese Agama version of step 3 anapana clearly, unambiguously, and with copious similes asserts the "whole anatomical body" interpretation.

Regarding the statement :
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā.
I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.

I take that to mean step 1 and 2 of anapana, (clear knowing of long/short in/out breath), count as a physical "kaaya" to justify it's place in the first tetrad of anapanasati 16 steps and first tetrad satipatthana, kayaanupassi.

Also, looking at MN 119, (thanissaro trans. from ATI)
"Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman ...

For the "whole anatomical body", that sutta passage makes sense. If we go with "body of breath", how exactly do you permeate, pervade, suffuse and fill "body of breath" with pleasure and rapture? Does "body of breath" have a nervous system that sends signals of piti and sukha to the brain?

Note all 4 jhana similes (corresponding to 4 jhaanas) use that statement "He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure"

Also, the canonical formula for 3rd jhana states "sukhanca kayena patisamvedi". Kaya as anatomical body would seem to be the most natural interpretation.
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed May 08, 2013 8:44 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby daverupa » Wed May 08, 2013 11:19 am


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Wed May 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Last edited by Zakattack on Wed May 08, 2013 12:54 pm, edited 12 times in total.

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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Wed May 08, 2013 12:11 pm


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed May 08, 2013 12:41 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby reflection » Wed May 08, 2013 12:57 pm

Sati and samatha are not so different. In my experience you can't really have one without the other. They support each other, so to develop one is to develop the other. In a mind that's not calm, mindfulness will fall apart. Also without mindfulness, the mind easily becomes disturbed. So in my humble opinion, all this detailed discussion of what to do with what part of which sutta is missing the point. When one knows what mindfulness and calm are really like, not when they are weak but when they are strong, there is no need for such step-by-step analysis.

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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby daverupa » Wed May 08, 2013 1:37 pm


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Nyana » Wed May 08, 2013 10:38 pm


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Thu May 09, 2013 1:51 am


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Nyana » Thu May 09, 2013 3:01 am


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 09, 2013 8:39 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu May 09, 2013 8:43 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Zakattack » Thu May 09, 2013 9:58 am


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby reflection » Thu May 09, 2013 2:39 pm


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Nyana » Fri May 10, 2013 12:01 am


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Re: No Piti, No Sukkha, No Vipassana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri May 10, 2013 8:16 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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