Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

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twelph
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by twelph »

marc108 wrote: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part3-d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first two steps of breath meditation [§151] involve simple tasks of directed thought and evaluation: directing one's thoughts and attention to the breath in and of itself, in the present, at the same time evaluating it as one begins to discern variations in the length of the breath. Some modern teachers maintain that the factor of evaluation here also includes taking one's observations of short and long breathing as a basis for adjusting the rhythm of the breath to make it as comfortable as possible. Because the first level of jhāna must be based on a sense of pleasure [§238], this advice is very practical.

The remaining steps are willed or determined: One "trains oneself," first by manipulating one's sense of conscious awareness, making it sensitive to the body as a whole.Then one can begin manipulating the bodily sensations of which one is aware, reducing them to a single sensation of calm by letting "bodily fabrication" — the breath — grow calm so as to create an easeful sense of rapture and pleasure. A comparison between the stages of breath meditation and the graphic analogies for jhāna[/i]


Thanks, this quote makes much more sense to me.
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mikenz66
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thanks for sharing the quotes. I have a couple of quick questions with reference to what you've highlighted...

With regards to the first red highlighted quote, I've heard about some insight practitioners (I forget their lineage) who deliberately cultivate physical pain in order to give them physical sensations to work with. Have you heard of this practice, and if so, do you know of any quotes/texts etc. from the vipassana traditions that explain that practice of deliberately cultivating physical pain, juxtaposed against the need to make sure our body is at peace? I'm curious as to how the two things might be resolved.
No. What you may be referring to is the usual statements from just about any Dhamma teacher you could name that whatever arises is an opportunity to learn, and expecting to only ever have pleasant experiences isn't helpful.
You could probably pull like "pain is an opportunity to learn" from some Dhamma talk, remove the context ( such as: "it's inevitable, so when it arises look at it as an opportunity, not a threat"), and misinterpret it.
retrofuturist wrote: With regards to the second highlight, I was just curious as to your logic behind choosing only to highlight number five? You introduce the full quote by saying it's regarding "fabrication of one's meditation practice", but to me, point 1-9 all pertain to fabrication of one's meditation practice. Did you call out #5 because it seems to correlate with Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "learn what works for you" mode of teaching, or is it something else?
Only because it was the one that most explicitly said "fabrication" ("recreate those conditions"). But of course, I agree. There's nothing particularly special about a Dhamma teacher talking about fabricating the path to liberation, since that's just what the Buddha said...

:namaste:
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:What you may be referring to is the usual statements from just about any Dhamma teacher you could name that whatever arises is an opportunity to learn, and expecting to only ever have pleasant experiences isn't helpful.
You could probably pull like "pain is an opportunity to learn" from some Dhamma talk, remove the context ( such as: "it's inevitable, so when it arises look at it as an opportunity, not a threat"), and misinterpret it.
No... in whatever context I heard it from, it was definitely intentionally cultivated unpleasant vedana. I think it was by "crushing" (not literally) the legs, for the purpose of giving rise to stronger vedana which could be experienced and observed more vividly. Either way, in the context it appeared, it seemed as if the activity was being valorized. I'll have a poke around and see if I can find anything. Until that point, feel free to disregard... I assumed such practices were more commonly known.

Thanks for the clarification on the other point.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Cittasanto
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:What you may be referring to is the usual statements from just about any Dhamma teacher you could name that whatever arises is an opportunity to learn, and expecting to only ever have pleasant experiences isn't helpful.
You could probably pull like "pain is an opportunity to learn" from some Dhamma talk, remove the context ( such as: "it's inevitable, so when it arises look at it as an opportunity, not a threat"), and misinterpret it.
No... in whatever context I heard it from, it was definitely intentionally cultivated unpleasant vedana. I think it was by "crushing" (not literally) the legs, for the purpose of giving rise to stronger vedana which could be experienced and observed more vividly. Either way, in the context it appeared, it seemed as if the activity was being valorized. I'll have a poke around and see if I can find anything. Until that point, feel free to disregard... I assumed such practices were more commonly known.

Thanks for the clarification on the other point.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I have heard this also, but I think it was to do with misguided students rather than an actual practice recommended by the teacher.
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mikenz66
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by mikenz66 »

I've been listening to this series of talks (actually I think for the second time, but I forget things easily...):
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1839/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mindfulness and Concentration
Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, together with Right Effort, form the concentration-aggregate of the noble eightfold path. Although these factors are often discussed separately, the Pali discourses show that the Buddha meant for them to form a unified practice. This course through talks, readings, discussions, and meditation explored what these factors means and how they can be brought together in a mutually supportive and nourishing way.
You might like to work through the 30 minute guided meditation at the start if you want to see how his approach is implemented.

In talking about concentration he mentions that in the end one has to realise that even the most pleasant, concentrated, state is impermanent and should not be clung to (as mentioned in various suttas). His particular spin is that it is very powerful to realise that something that one is so attached to is impermanent and ultimately unsatisfactory.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.
I can't find exactly what he says in the transcribed talks on Access to Insight, but here's some more from Ven Thanissaro, commenting about attachment, or not, to pleasant experiences:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#gotcha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In this way, the pursuit of happiness through developing strong concentration for the pursuit of total freedom is not a selfish thing. As long as your concentration is imbued with the other factors of the path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness — it's perfectly safe. They sometimes talk about getting stuck on concentration or becoming a concentration junkie, but those are cases where the concentration lacks the other elements of the path. Your understanding of why there's suffering in the world is skewed, or your understanding of why you're suffering is skewed. You spend all your time just focusing on your breath and not wanting to do anything for anyone else anywhere, not wanting to be bothered by the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... eightening" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is especially important when really strong experiences come in the meditation. You don't jump to any conclusions. Again, you lift the mind above them and watch. Hopefully by that time the habit has become built-in enough so that you realize you can't allow yourself to get attached to anything, even the really amazing experiences. Lift yourself up rung by rung by rung along the ladder. You go from one attachment to a higher one to a higher one. Finally, though, there comes a point where you have to let go and just watch what happens. Only when you've developed this habit of lifting the mind up can you get through some of these experiences that waylay everyone else along the meditation path.
And here's Sayadaw U Pandita spin on the pleasant experiences:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you have extraordinary experiences, please make it a point to note and label them. Be clearly aware that rapture, faith, tranquility and so forth are no more than mental states. If, while noting them, you realize that you are attached to them, cut the attachment immediately and return your attention to the primary object at the abdomen. Only then will your progress continue, and it will bring you even sweeter fruit.

Meditation teachers have to be tactful in dealing with students who are in this stage of practice. The students are so excited by their experiences that they tend to rebel if the teacher is too deflating. Instead, one might gently say, “Your practice is not bad. These are natural things which arise in practice, but there are many other experiences which are much better than what you have now. So why don’t you note all these things so you can experience the better ones?”

Paying heed to these instructions, the yogi returns to sitting and carefully notes the lights, faith, rapture, happiness, tranquility and comfort. It dawns on him or her that this simple noting actually is the correct path of practice. Thus oriented, he or she can proceed with great confidence.
:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: Either way, in the context it appeared, it seemed as if the activity was being valorized. I'll have a poke around and see if I can find anything.
It will be interesting to see the actuial statement and the actual context.
Until that point, feel free to disregard... I assumed such practices were more commonly known.
One does not need to deliberately manufacture pain to watch. The mind/body process does that all by itself without any need to add to it. Just sit unmoving for even a few minutes to see what arises.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote: Either way, in the context it appeared, it seemed as if the activity was being valorized. I'll have a poke around and see if I can find anything.
It will be interesting to see the actuial statement and the actual context.
Until that point, feel free to disregard... I assumed such practices were more commonly known.
One does not need to deliberately manufacture pain to watch. The mind/body process does that all by itself without any need to add to it. Just sit unmoving for even a few minutes to see what arises.
Is it possible that it is Sunlun Sayadaw to whom Retro is referring to as regards cultivating painful sensations.
As you say, you do not have to physically manufacture pain, one can manufacture pain with inappropriate attention & view.

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote: Is it possible that it is Sunlun Sayadaw to whom Retro is referring to as regards cultivating painful sensations.
We shall await retro's response.
As you say, you do not have to physically manufacture pain, one can manufacture pain with inappropriate attention & view.
While that might be true, it is not what I said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by mikenz66 »

Finished the series of talks while doing some gardening (finally we have a sunny day :)):
mikenz66 wrote:I've been listening to this series of talks (actually I think for the second time, but I forget things easily...):
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/1/talk/1839/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mindfulness and Concentration
and sat through the guided meditation.

Ven Thanissaro has some very useful ways of viewing these topics and I got some good reminders of various things that are always good to have reminders about...


The way he describes meditation seems to me pretty much the same idea as the "primary object" concept that the Mahasi approach, and most "vipassana" teachers, use:
There’s no one-size-fits-all kind of meditation. Breath meditation
comes the closest to a universal object because, after all, we all have a
breath, and for all of us it’s an important part of our lives. Ajaan Lee
recommends taking it as your home base. It’s the safest of all
meditation objects. But there are times when you need to forage
around in other areas. You may find yourself way off in left field and
have to find your way back to home base.

ePublished Dhamma Talks (3)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One thing I've not heard Ven Thanissaro discuss in detail is walking meditation. Are there any talks/writings where he discusses that? I mention this because I find that walking is excellent for discerning intention, which is a key component of the "fashioning" that he emphasises in many places.

:anjali:
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bodom
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by bodom »

mikenz66 wrote:One thing I've not heard Ven Thanissaro discuss in detail is walking meditation. Are there any talks/writings where he discusses that?


Mindfulness: Walking Meditation: Stillness In Motion
http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/179/6068.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by marc108 »

bodom wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:One thing I've not heard Ven Thanissaro discuss in detail is walking meditation. Are there any talks/writings where he discusses that?


Mindfulness: Walking Meditation: Stillness In Motion
http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/179/6068.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
I believe that this is the same talk on paper:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#walking" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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mikenz66
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Bodom and Marc,

That was a nice accompaniment to mowing the lawn...

As he says in the talk, with walking it's easier to see certain types of movements of the mind because you are making grosser decisions than when sitting:
The other reason why it's important to develop this ability to stay centered in the midst of activity, is that while you're doing walking meditation, you begin to observe how the mind slips out. It's often the case that you gain insight into the movements of the mind a lot more easily while you're walking than while you're sitting, because when you're sitting, everything is supposed to be totally still. You don't have to pay attention to anything else at all. You can clamp down on everything and get very, very centered, very, very still. But while you're walking, you still have to watch; you still have to move; there are decisions to be made even in the simple matter of walking. Where you're going to place your eyes, where you're going to step, noticing how close you are to the end of the path: simple things, but they're movements of the mind. And when the mind moves that way, it's easy for other intentions to sneak into the movement to divert it to their own ends. If you're not careful, they'll pull you away. But if you get used to looking for them, you gain a sense of how the mind tends to flow out.
:anjali:
Mike
danieLion
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by danieLion »

tiltbillings wrote:
farmer wrote:Tilt is asking a good, specific question and getting only vague answers. . . .
Thanks. I appreciate your catching what I was asking and I appreciate even more the time you took for your response. It was helpful.
Hi Tilt,
Just listen to any of Thanissaro's guided meditations available all over the internet. He gives detailed specifics in all his guided meditations that address your inquiry.

For instance:

http://www.audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/300.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/179/11013.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_player/179/11004.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/111228_R ... Breath.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

or, even more specifically, see:

http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/091102%2 ... %20Day.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://dhammatalks.org/Archive/111225_S ... Breath.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Breath: A Vehicle for Liberation found at
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/16/talk/1843/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Breathe Meditation Series
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/179/talk/11023/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Exploring The Breath
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/179/talk/11026/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

good-will
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tiltbillings
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by tiltbillings »

danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
farmer wrote:Tilt is asking a good, specific question and getting only vague answers. . . .
Thanks. I appreciate your catching what I was asking and I appreciate even more the time you took for your response. It was helpful.
Hi Tilt,
Just listen to any of Thanissaro's guided meditations available all over the internet. He gives detailed specifics in all his guided meditations that address your inquiry.

For instance:. . . .
Thanks. I'll listen to probably not all of them, but three or so should do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
danieLion
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Re: Thanissaro Bikkhu and manipulation of the breath

Post by danieLion »

Cool, Tilt.
:anjali:
Night, night.
Daniel
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