He trains himself...relinquishment

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Source
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Source » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:04 pm

amtross wrote:isn't it possible that partial calming could produce a lower level of rapture?

Yes, Amtross, I already pointed this out. Partial calming could produce a lower level of rapture. But full calming will produce full rapture. In other words, rapture always followings the calming of the breath/body.

With metta :smile:
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)

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Cittasanto
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:32 pm

Source wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I am quoting your first post here to remind you what you are saying, and showing the sequence of a mastered state such as Jhana is no proof.

Hello again, Cittasanto

The sequence of jhana is strong proof (on an intellectual basis) that contemplation of the subtle qualities of mind occurs after rapture. The phrase: "the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability" correlates well with the stock phrase about contemplation of mind from MN 10. If there is rapture in the mind, the subtle qualities of mind cannot be discerned clearly because the feeling of rapture dominates the mind. The mind must be cleansed of rapture & happiness for its underlying qualities to be clearly discerned.

who said it can not happen?
your evidence does not show that rapture is due to concentration, which the Jhana formulation pointedly shows (and re-enforces the possition you have claimed tobe against).

In adddition, consider the 6th & 7th fetters, i.e., lust for rupa jhana & arupa jhana. This is futher proof that subtle defilements (underlying tendencies) of mind, as objects of contemplation, occur after rapture & happiness occur.

doesn't mean rapture is dependent upon that for it to occur.

When the breath is sufficiently calmed, i.e., when calming of the breath is fully mastered, rapture arises. When the calming of rapture is fully mastered, contemplation of the mind arises. Thus to separate sequential arising from "mastery" has no basis. Thanissaro's logic here, again, is unconvincing. As I posted, in terms of anapanasati, there must be some calming of the breath/body for rapture to arise. This is natural law. The feeling must arise in relation to a sense object, namely, the experience of some calm & concentration.

and what about the whole body?

But if rapture is arising based on any other cause in meditation, such as being inspired by teachings, inspired by a guru or having a spontaneous mental catharthis, this is not the rapture described in anapanasati. The rapture described in anapanasati arises with the calming of the breath/body as its proximate cause.

Well I disagree the buddha would of used the same term to refer to different experiences, as I pointed out, the Sequence can be viewed as individual things, as initial instruction can be applied to any tetrad, or individual aspect of the list as well as in sequence, and from any of the initial three tetrads or areas therein apply the fourth tetrad.
the satipatthana sutta can actually be seen as the application of the Dhamma Tetrad found in the Anapanasati sutta to the areas of the other tetrads, as one interpretation.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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tiltbillings
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:33 pm

Source = Element aka Nick the double nicker. bye-bye
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Cittasanto
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:48 pm

Have I been part of the Element experiment!
OH were are the cameras
phpBB [video]

just for fun
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Dmytro
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Dmytro » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:47 am

Hi,

Source wrote:in numerous places the Buddha said rapture arises when learning there is a path to freedom from suffering. this is similar to the rapture of when receiving a Xmas gift. where as the rapture of anapanasati is the rapture arising as a result of concentration, as follows:

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal....

MN 19


MN 19, Dvedhavitakka sutta, is an example of development of Seven Awakening Factors.

The passage you cited shows a transition from persistence (viriya) to rapture (piti).

Best wishes, Dmytro


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