He trains himself...relinquishment

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Cal » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:32 pm

Just reading this sutta :-
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn54/sn54.008.than.html

"Describing how a monk should meditate on the breath, there are typical repetitions in the format
He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

(paragraph 6)

I'm just interested in practical terms how one actually does this. Presumably each of the list of focuses given by the Buddha (inconstancy, dispassion, cessation etc.) are a focus for a single, whole meditation session? I guess I'm not sure how one focuses on relinquishment and still concentrates on the breath. Generally (and possibly incorrectly) I've assumed that when one wants to use mindfulness of breathing to lead to contemplation, one eventually drops the breath as focus and brings another subject to mind as the focus.

How do people use the guidance in this sutta?

Cal
Right Speech: It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will. [AN 5.198]

Personally, I seem to gain the most insight when I am under the most pressure, when life is at its most unpleasant. There is something in me on those occasions which feels that there is nothing left but to be aware of 'this'. Ajahn Sumedho - Don't Take Your Life Personally, p288
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:46 pm

Hi Cal,

I'm just interested in practical terms how one actually does this. Presumably each of the list of focuses given by the Buddha (inconstancy, dispassion, cessation etc.) are a focus for a single, whole meditation session?


For what my own personal experience is worth, I started making faster progress when I followed the guidance of a monk and focused on any or all of these in a single session. If the mind would rather settle on one wholesome topic rather than another, then I find it OK just to allow this to happen. (This was at Chithurst, by the way - I saw your location!)

In this context, I like this sutta:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby santa100 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:14 pm

Actually you can use the breath as the topic for insight. The breath comes in and out, in and out,...that's "inconstancy". The in-breath's "fading away" to give rise to the out-breath. The in-breath then "ceases" to give rise to the out-breath. The in-breath then was "relinquished", etc.. Insight is consistently developed, first based on the breath and then eventually extended to all other phenomena in life..
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Aloka » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:39 pm

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:53 am

Hi Cal
Take a deep breath in, hold it for a moment, now exhale, notice the relaxation the softening, the relinquishing of the breath!
Personally I would say they can be combined in every moment of grasping, not just one session for one 'focus'. one sees the uncertainty of something being a stable foundation for happiness so is unsatisfactory, dispassion arises and so does the cessation of its allure.

breathing in focusing upon relinquishment is seeing that something is needed yet not satisfactory, so no passion rises for it. like with food, breathing, or even friendship.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby RMSmith » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:43 am

Great info. Thanks for this. :clap:
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:27 am

Greetings,

Cal wrote:I'm just interested in practical terms how one actually does this.

Find what is unsatisfactory and let go of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby ground » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:00 am

You may go directly to relinquishment and skip unnecessary detours ... if unnecessary

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Cal » Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:01 pm

Many thanks for all the varied suggestions.

Cal :anjali:
Right Speech: It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will. [AN 5.198]

Personally, I seem to gain the most insight when I am under the most pressure, when life is at its most unpleasant. There is something in me on those occasions which feels that there is nothing left but to be aware of 'this'. Ajahn Sumedho - Don't Take Your Life Personally, p288
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby nameless » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:30 pm

Here Thanissaro Bhikkhu states that

Another point to keep in mind in understanding the maps of the practice is that they list the steps of meditation, not in the order in which they will be experienced, but in the order in which they can be mastered. There are cases, for instance, where one will feel rapture in the course of the practice (step 5 in the practice of breath meditation) before one is able to breath in and out sensitive to the entire body (step 3). In such cases, it is important not to jump to any conclusions as to one's level of attainment, or to feel that one has bypassed the need to master an earlier step. Instead — when several different experiences arise together in a jumble, as they often do — one should use the maps to tell which experience to focus on first for the sake of developing one's meditation as a skill.

One qualification here is that it is not necessary to master all the levels of concentration in order to gain Awakening. The relationship of concentration to discernment is a controversial issue, which we will cover in the following section, but here we may simply note that many texts [§§173-74] point out that the experience of the first jhāna can be a sufficient basis for the discernment leading to Awakening. The same holds true for the first four steps in breath meditation, which constitute one of the alternative ways of developing the body in and of itself as a frame of reference [§30]. In this case, one's practice of breath meditation would jump from a mastery of step 4 straight to step 13, skipping the intervening steps. In fact, beginning with step 4, it is possible to jump directly to 13 from any of the steps, and from there to progress all the way to Awakening.

The fact that the higher stages are unnecessary in some cases, however, does not mean that they are superfluous. Many people, as they develop the skill of their meditation, will find that their minds naturally go to deeper levels of stillness with no liberating insight arising. For them, the maps are valuable aids for a number of reasons. To begin with, the maps can help indicate what does and does not count as Awakening. When one arrives at a new, more refined level of awareness in one's practice, it is easy to assume that one has attained the goal. Comparing one's experience to the maps, however, can show that the experience is simply a higher level of concentration. Furthermore, awareness of the distinct levels can help one review them after attaining them, so that in the course of trying to master them, moving from one level to another, one can begin to gain insight into the element of will and fabrication that goes into them. This insight can then provide an understanding into the pattern of cause and effect in the mind and, as passage §182 shows, can lead to a sense of dispassion and ultimately to Awakening.

However, the maps should not be used to plan one's practice in advance. This is the message of §162, which makes the point that one should not try to use one's knowledge of the various levels of the practice to force one's way through them. In other words, one should not try to concoct a particular state of jhāna based on ideas picked up from the maps. On reaching a particular level, one should not be in a hurry to go to the next. Instead, one should familiarize oneself with that level of mind, perfecting one's mastery; eventually that state of concentration will ripen naturally into the next level. To continue the image of the passage, one will find that there is no need to jump to another pasture to taste different grass and water, for the new grass and water will develop right in one's own pasture.


There's more detail in the essay itself, which might be worth reading. Relinquishment itself is the very last step, so maybe no need to think about it too much at this point, at least from Thanissaro's point of view.
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Source » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:49 pm

nameless wrote:Thanissaro Bhikkhu states that

Another point to keep in mind in understanding the maps of the practice is that they list the steps of meditation, not in the order in which they will be experienced, but in the order in which they can be mastered. There are cases, for instance, where one will feel rapture in the course of the practice (step 5 in the practice of breath meditation) before one is able to breath in and out sensitive to the entire body (step 3).

thanissaro is obviously incorrect here. rapture is felt due to tranquilisation of the body. momentary rapture may be felt in the course of practise but only due to some sort of tranquilisation. even if due to a mental catharthis, this remains a tranquilistion/liberation in respect to the body. when the breath/body/hindrances are fully tranquilised, the factors of jhana (rapture & happiness) arise.

in summary, the steps of anapanasati are listed in the order in which they will be experienced. relinquishment happens after the insight meditation of the 13th step

:ugeek:
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Dmytro » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:50 am

Hi,

Source wrote:thanissaro is obviously incorrect here. rapture is felt due to tranquilisation of the body. momentary rapture may be felt in the course of practise but only due to some sort of tranquilisation. even if due to a mental catharthis, this remains a tranquilistion/liberation in respect to the body. when the breath/body/hindrances are fully tranquilised, the factors of jhana (rapture & happiness) arise.


Buddha would agree with Ven. Thanissaro:

"And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

in summary, the steps of anapanasati are listed in the order in which they will be experienced. relinquishment happens after the insight meditation of the 13th step


The methods of anapanasati are grouped by the four ways of establishing remembrance (satipatthana), and hence they are not consecutive steps.
Bhikkhu Bodhi explains this well.

Relinquishment is one of the seven "selective recognitions" (sanna) to be practiced:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2834#p40805

Metta,

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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Source » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:59 pm

Dmytro wrote:And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

hello Dmytro

the quote above is not within context. in numerous places the Buddha said rapture arises when learning there is a path to freedom from suffering. this is similar to the rapture of when receiving a Xmas gift. where as the rapture of anapanasati is the rapture arising as a result of concentration, as follows:

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal....

MN 19


Dmytro wrote:The methods of anapanasati are grouped by the four ways of establishing remembrance (satipatthana), and hence they are not consecutive steps.
Bhikkhu Bodhi explains this well. Relinquishment is one of the seven "selective recognitions" (sanna) to be practiced:

your explanation here does not explain or demonstrate your point. the seven sannas are the same as the last tetrad of ananapanasati

the seven sannas (aniccanupassana, dukkhaanupassana, anattaanupassana, khayaanupassana, viraagaanupassana, nirodhaanupassana, patinissaggaanupassana)
are consecutive steps, as detailed in the discources

with metta :ugeek:

The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply.

"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.

"Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.

"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

SN 12.23


"Now what do you think of this, O monks? Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?"

"Impermanent, O Lord."

"Now, what is impermanent, is that unsatisfactory or satisfactory?"

"Unsatisfactory, O Lord."

"Now, what is impermanent, unsatisfactory, subject to change, is it proper to regard it as: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self'?"

"Indeed, not that, O Lord."

"O monks, the well-instructed noble disciple, seeing thus, gets wearied of form, gets wearied of feeling, gets wearied of perception, gets wearied of mental formations, gets wearied of consciousness. Being wearied he becomes passion-free. In his freedom from passion, he is emancipated. Being emancipated, there is the knowledge that he is emancipated. He knows: 'birth is exhausted, lived is the holy life, what had to be done is done, there is nothing more of this becoming.'"

SN 22.59
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:06 am

Hi Source,
I doubt we have met before so Hi & welcome to DW!

Dmytro has shown that the list is not necessarily sequential.
although if sequential why is rapture happening before the mind (9-12 in the list) is turned to, where the concentration, of the sort you use as proof, begins (no.11)?

just to note there is a instruction outside of the 16 areas & four tetrads which ends with "Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out" essentially this supports the idea that each area can be taken individually, or as a group (tetrad or whole).

and can you provide a reference to show the Saññas are only consecutive steps?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby amtross » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:25 am

I think Thanissaro Bhikkhu's point is that you can experience Rapture before you have mastered the prior steps. Assuming some sort of Bodily calming is a prerequisite for rapture (and I'm not sure this is true) then isn't it possible that partial calming could produce a lower level of rapture? I imagine most, if not all, folks who sit down to meditate on a regular basis can calm the body at least to some extent. But, mastering the calming of the bodily formation requires some practice.
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Source » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:55 am

Hello Cittasanto

Do you believe in rebirth? I trust we have probably met before. Obviously, I disagree Dmytro has shown anything convincingly & conclusively.

I can only recommend to study the mind. Buddha taught with feeling as a condition, craving (defilement) arises. Have you ever experienced craving, directly, without any pleasure? If so, craving & defilement are very disturbing states of mind. But when human beings engage in pleasure, the feelings of pleasure "cover" the craving.

Drug addiction is an example easy to understand. The pleasure, the high, is enjoyable. The craving symptons, of the addiction, are intolerable. But human beings engage in pleasures because, when doing so, they can only feel the pleasure but not the craving. In summary, where there is pleasure (in one not fully enlightened) there is also underlying craving.

The Buddha taught:
With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession (underlying tendency) gets obsessed.

If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession (underlying tendency) gets obsessed.

If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession (underlying tendency) gets obsessed.

MN 148

Where there is feeling, there is underlying tendencies (anusaya). Therefore, when rapture & happiness are calmed (step 8), it is only natural there may remain underlying defilements, just as a drug addict experiences craving symptoms when their pleasure high passes away.

This answers your question about rapture happening before the mind. And when any underlying defilements cease, this answers your question about how the mind becomes glad (step 10), concentrated (step 11) and liberated (step 12).

And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion.

"When the mind is constricted, he discerns that the mind is constricted. When the mind is scattered, he discerns that the mind is scattered. When the mind is enlarged, he discerns that the mind is enlarged. When the mind is not enlarged, he discerns that the mind is not enlarged. When the mind is surpassed, he discerns that the mind is surpassed. When the mind is unsurpassed, he discerns that the mind is unsurpassed. When the mind is concentrated, he discerns that the mind is concentrated. When the mind is not concentrated, he discerns that the mind is not concentrated. When the mind is released, he discerns that the mind is released. When the mind is not released, he discerns that the mind is not released.

MN 10


Cittasanto wrote:and can you provide a reference to show the Saññas are only consecutive steps?

I already did. Please re-read them. Anicca sanna (perception of impermanence) gives rise to dukkha sanna, then anatta sanna, then dispassion (viraga) sanna, etc. Without the perception of anicca, dukkha & anatta, how can dispassion and patinissagga (relinquishment) occur?

The fundamental lawfulness of Dhamma is established in cause & effect. Consecutive steps naturally follows this natural lawfulness. Please keep in mind the instruction the 5th arahant disciple Assaji provided to Upatissa (Sariputta).

With metta :ugeek:

In response, the Elder Assaji uttered this stanza:

"Of all those things that from a cause arise,
Tathagata the cause thereof has told;
And how they cease to be, that too he tells,
This is the doctrine of the Great Recluse."
Last edited by Source on Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Source » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:28 am

Cittasanto wrote:although if sequential why is rapture happening before the mind (9-12 in the list) is turned to, where the concentration, of the sort you use as proof, begins (no.11)?

To add, there are different degrees of concentration, thus the various jhanas. Your question is easily answered from stock passages. Please note, below, the Buddha mentions qualities of mind, in detail, after rapture. In general, most of the Buddha's teachings are sequential, such as the Eightfold Path, etc.

A sutta often lacking in sequentiality is the Satipatthana Sutta. This results in some scholars, such as Bhante Sujato, questioning its authenticity :geek:

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, I entered & remained in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture I remained in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. I entered & remained in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives.

MN 19


In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being.

MN 117


These philosophical suppositions, inherited from the tradition and largely unexamined, underlie and inform the major schools of contemporary Theravāda meditation. Meditators practice precisely in order to see the elements of ‘ultimate reality’. The prime source text for this approach is the ‘Mahāsatipaṭṭhāna Sutta’, which we suggest would be better called the ‘Piltdown Sutta’. Is it too much to hope that the revelation that this is one of the latest and least authentic of all the texts in the Nikāyas will cause such meditation schools to question their own assumptions and methods?"

http://sites.google.com/site/santipada/sathipattana
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Source wrote:Hello Cittasanto

Do you believe in rebirth? I trust we have probably met before. Obviously, I disagree Dmytro has shown anything convincingly & conclusively.

you are a new member here, we have not met before in this life. and your questioning my belief in this area shows we do not know each other!
he has shown another sequence, or did the Buddha not teach that?

Certain descriptions are certainly sequential, but this does not mean all are, and things do not happen in other orders, which has been shown, and the DO list itself has feeling as a requisite condition, within name and form, of the six sense bases also, not to mention that the DO sequence is not always in the same order or possessing the same links in every occurrence.

Where there is feeling, there is underlying tendencies (anusaya). Therefore, when rapture & happiness are calmed (step 8), it is only natural there may remain underlying defilements, just as a drug addict experiences craving symptoms when their pleasure high passes away.

This answers your question about rapture happening before the mind. And when any underlying defilements cease, this answers your question about how the mind becomes glad (step 10), concentrated (step 11) and liberated (step 12).

miss something? [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.'

Cittasanto wrote:and can you provide a reference to show the Saññas are only consecutive steps?

I already did. Please re-read them. Anicca sanna (perception of impermanence) gives rise to dukkha sanna, then anatta sanna, then dispassion (viraga) sanna, etc. Without the perception of anicca, dukkha & anatta, how can dispassion and patinissagga (relinquishment) occur?

you just gave a list not a reference saying they follow on from one another, apart from your personal opinion.

The fundamental lawfulness of Dhamma is established in cause & effect. Consecutive steps naturally follows this natural lawfulness. Please keep in mind the instruction the 5th arahant disciple Assaji provided to Upatissa (Sariputta).

of mastery yes, the training is step by step, but, that doesn't mean these things always follow the order of mastering them, as has been shown.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:29 pm

I am quoting your first post here to remind you what you are saying, and showing the sequence of a mastered state such as Jhana is no proof.

Source wrote:
nameless wrote:Thanissaro Bhikkhu states that

Another point to keep in mind in understanding the maps of the practice is that they list the steps of meditation, not in the order in which they will be experienced, but in the order in which they can be mastered. There are cases, for instance, where one will feel rapture in the course of the practice (step 5 in the practice of breath meditation) before one is able to breath in and out sensitive to the entire body (step 3).

thanissaro is obviously incorrect here. rapture is felt due to tranquilisation of the body. momentary rapture may be felt in the course of practise but only due to some sort of tranquilisation. even if due to a mental catharthis, this remains a tranquilistion/liberation in respect to the body. when the breath/body/hindrances are fully tranquilised, the factors of jhana (rapture & happiness) arise.

in summary, the steps of anapanasati are listed in the order in which they will be experienced. relinquishment happens after the insight meditation of the 13th step

:ugeek:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: He trains himself...relinquishment

Postby Source » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Cittasanto wrote:I am quoting your first post here to remind you what you are saying, and showing the sequence of a mastered state such as Jhana is no proof.

Hello again, Cittasanto

The sequence of jhana is strong proof (on an intellectual basis) that contemplation of the subtle qualities of mind occurs after rapture. The phrase: "the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability" correlates well with the stock phrase about contemplation of mind from MN 10. If there is rapture in the mind, the subtle qualities of mind cannot be discerned clearly because the feeling of rapture dominates the mind. The mind must be cleansed of rapture & happiness for its underlying qualities to be clearly discerned.

In adddition, consider the 6th & 7th fetters, i.e., lust for rupa jhana & arupa jhana. This is futher proof that subtle defilements (underlying tendencies) of mind, as objects of contemplation, occur after rapture & happiness occur.

When the breath is sufficiently calmed, i.e., when calming of the breath is fully mastered, rapture arises. When the calming of rapture is fully mastered, contemplation of the mind arises. Thus to separate sequential arising from "mastery" has no basis. Thanissaro's logic here, again, is unconvincing. As I posted, in terms of anapanasati, there must be some calming of the breath/body for rapture to arise. This is natural law. The feeling must arise in relation to a sense object, namely, the experience of some calm & concentration.

But if rapture is arising based on any other cause in meditation, such as being inspired by teachings, inspired by a guru or having a spontaneous mental catharthis, this is not the rapture described in anapanasati. The rapture described in anapanasati arises with the calming of the breath/body as its proximate cause.

With metta :ugeek:
Anupubbikatha: teaching step-by-step, in proper sequence; he teaches the principles or subject matter in order, from easy to abstruse, shallow to profound, in logical progression. (A.III.184)
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