Cittasanto wrote:I am quoting your first post here to remind you what you are saying, and showing the sequence of a mastered state such as Jhana is no proof.
Hello again, Cittasanto
The sequence of jhana is strong proof (on an intellectual basis) that contemplation of the subtle qualities of mind occurs after rapture. The phrase: "the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability
" correlates well with the stock phrase about contemplation of mind from MN 10. If there is rapture in the mind, the subtle qualities of mind cannot be discerned clearly because the feeling of rapture dominates the mind. The mind must be cleansed of rapture & happiness for its underlying qualities to be clearly discerned.
who said it can not happen?
your evidence does not show that rapture is due to concentration, which the Jhana formulation pointedly shows (and re-enforces the possition you have claimed tobe against).
In adddition, consider the 6th & 7th fetters, i.e., lust for rupa jhana & arupa jhana. This is futher proof that subtle defilements (underlying tendencies) of mind, as objects of contemplation, occur after rapture & happiness occur.
doesn't mean rapture is dependent upon that for it to occur.
When the breath is sufficiently calmed, i.e., when calming of the breath is fully mastered, rapture arises. When the calming of rapture is fully mastered, contemplation of the mind arises. Thus to separate sequential arising from "mastery" has no basis. Thanissaro's logic here, again, is unconvincing. As I posted, in terms of anapanasati, there must be some calming of the breath/body for rapture to arise. This is natural law. The feeling must arise in relation to a sense object, namely, the experience of some calm & concentration.
and what about the whole body?
But if rapture is arising based on any other cause in meditation, such as being inspired by teachings, inspired by a guru or having a spontaneous mental catharthis, this is not the rapture described in anapanasati. The rapture described in anapanasati arises with the calming of the breath/body as its proximate cause.
Well I disagree the buddha would of used the same term to refer to different experiences, as I pointed out, the Sequence can be viewed as individual things, as initial instruction can be applied to any tetrad, or individual aspect of the list as well as in sequence, and from any of the initial three tetrads or areas therein apply the fourth tetrad.
the satipatthana sutta can actually be seen as the application of the Dhamma Tetrad found in the Anapanasati sutta to the areas of the other tetrads, as one interpretation.