Why Meditate?

[Ron Crouch]

... if one has had some time to prepare, there can be this voice inside saying, "stay calm man, it's not the end of the world! So the world isn't what you thought it was - so what? You're still here - and life still needs to be lived, whatever it's 'ultimate' nature. The floor might well be conditionally arisen, but it still needs sweeping!"

This is brilliant! This is when having good dhamma friends and a solid teacher can make a big difference - attitude is everything.

[Nyana]

I know Nibs isn't a big fan of the VM, but I still root for Buddhaghosa, so I went and took a look at this passage in context, and it looks as if Nibs is right, there is some Abhidhamma stuff popping up there.

Of course there is Abhidhamma stuff in there. The Vism. relies heavily upon the Abhidhammapiṭaka.

Essentially, those writing the VM were trying to sort out three distinct theories describing how the path-consiousness could be different for different people.

Buddhaghosa is relying on the path structure found in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and the Paṭisambhidāmagga.

The idea that the path moment itself is a kind of super-jhana is one that I'm not that familiar with, but has some merits.

It's standard Theravāda exegesis.

One issue may be how we are using the term "path." I'm assuming that when you are talking about "path" you are not referring to the moment when one directly apprehends Nibbana - right?

Actually, that is precisely what I'm referring to.

Because that is nothing on top of nothing and there really can't be any factors of anything in Nibbana. However, I think Nib is talking about a direct apprehension of Nibbana. Which might help distinguish why there is a disagreement...

Nibbāna is probably one of the most misunderstood terms in contemporary Buddhism. The noble paths and fruitions are always cognitions arising with concomitant mental factors. Attaining a noble path entails the arising of these supramundane saṅkhāras and the non-arising (anuppāda), non-continuance (appavatta), cessation (nirodha), and extinguishment (nibbāna) of fetters, mental outflows, and underlying tendencies which are terminated by that particular path. And attaining the fruition of that path entails the full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of those same fetters, etc.

For example, when one attains the fruition of stream-entry then any saṅkhāras which would arise in the future for a worldling are completely terminated and cease forever. When one attains the fruition of a once-returner then any saṅkhāras which would arise in the future for a stream-entrant are completely terminated and cease forever. When one attains the fruition of a non-returner then any saṅkhāras which would arise in the future for a once-returner are completely terminated and cease forever. And finally, when one attains the arahant fruition then any saṅkhāras which would arise in the future for a non-returner are completely terminated and cease forever.

Why is this so? Because in each case the causes and conditions for future arising are eliminated with the fruition of each noble path. This is the whole point of conditioned arising (paṭiccasamuppāda) -- it occurs and ceases to occur due to specific conditionality (idappaccayatā). Phenomena arise according to specific conditionality:

• When this is, that is.
  From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

And phenomena cease according to specific conditionality:

• When this isn’t, that isn’t.
  From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

[nibs]

I know Nibs isn't a big fan of the VM, but I still root for Buddhaghosa, so I went and took a look at this passage in context, and it looks as if Nibs is right, there is some Abhidhamma stuff popping up there.

Of course there is Abhidhamma stuff in there. The Vism. relies heavily upon the Abhidhammapiṭaka.

Essentially, those writing the VM were trying to sort out three distinct theories describing how the path-consiousness could be different for different people.

Buddhaghosa is relying on the path structure found in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and the Paṭisambhidāmagga.

The idea that the path moment itself is a kind of super-jhana is one that I'm not that familiar with, but has some merits.

It's standard Theravāda exegesis.

One issue may be how we are using the term "path." I'm assuming that when you are talking about "path" you are not referring to the moment when one directly apprehends Nibbana - right?

Actually, that is precisely what I'm referring to.

Because that is nothing on top of nothing and there really can't be any factors of anything in Nibbana. However, I think Nib is talking about a direct apprehension of Nibbana. Which might help distinguish why there is a disagreement...

Nibbāna is probably one of the most misunderstood terms in contemporary Buddhism. The noble paths and fruitions are always cognitions arising with concomitant mental factors. Attaining a noble path entails the arising of these supramundane saṅkhāras and the non-arising (anuppāda), non-continuance (appavatta), cessation (nirodha), and extinguishment (nibbāna) of fetters, mental outflows, and underlying tendencies which are terminated by that particular path. And attaining the fruition of that path entails the full extinguishment (parinibbāna) of those same fetters, etc.
[/list]

These days, I lean towards the notion of 'nibbana' as a conscious cognised absence of 'construing', fabrications, 'objects', 'subjects', seeing in the seen, etc. I am also familiar with the infamous cessation of the senses 'blip' but my opinion has changed on that. Though such 'moments' do make the mind more pliant and malleable than pre-'moment'. I think I can see what Ñana may be pointing to. More rumination though is needed on my part to jump on board.

Nibs

[Ron Crouch]

Nana, you seem to be suggesting that one has cognitions in Nibbana -are you really saying that this is how it happens?

[Nyana]

Nana, you seem to be suggesting that one has cognitions in Nibbana -are you really saying that this is how it happens?

Well, there is no such thing as "in nibbāna." One has a cognition of nibbāna, i.e. a cognition of extinguishment. And cognitions always arise with concomitant mental factors (cetasikā). The Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha:

• 1. The First Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with initial application, sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  2. The Second Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  3. The Third Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  4. The Fourth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness,
  5. The Fifth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with equanimity and one-pointedness.
  
  These are the five types of Sotāpatti Path-consciousness.
  
  So are the Sakadāgāmī Path-consciousness, Anāgāmī Path-consciousness, and Arahatta Path-consciousness, making exactly twenty classes of consciousness. Similarly there are twenty classes of Fruit-consciousness. Thus there are forty types of supramundane consciousness.

This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

This developmental path sequence is found in SN 12.23 (S ii 29) Upanisa Sutta. This same developmental sequence, or significant portions of it, is also presented in Vin i 294, D i 73, D i 182, D i 207, D i 214, D i 232, D i 250, D iii 241, D iii 279, D iii 288, M i 37, M i 283, S iv 78, S iv 351-8, S v 156, S v 398, A i 243, A iii 21, A iii 285, A v 1-6, A v 312, A v 315, A v 317, A v 329, A v 333.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

As this is what is taught by the Buddha in the Suttas (kindly referenced in detail by Geoff in his post above) I think it shows good reason why a "dark night" event or sequence of an events ought not be retrofitted back into the Buddha's sequence as standard, nor claimed to be taught as the Buddha's teaching. There is nothing in this sequence (sometimes called 'transcendental dependent origination') that includes or accommodates (let alone necessitates) such things...

I for one would be interested to know how the Visuddhimagga path of insight-knowledges lines up with the four levels of aryan attainment noted in the suttas, and where the eradication of fetters associated with the four aryan attainments come to cease in the model of insight knowledges. Where does the Stream-winner fit into the equation, for example? Must one go all the way to the end of the insight-knowledges to attain Stream-entry? And if that is so, what is the path for the rest of the road to arahantship? etc.

Metta,
Retro.

[Prasadachitta]

This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

When I feel the need to form a model of how insight arises this is where I look. Just remembering it helps me along the sequence at least to the fourth one every time.

[Nyana]

I for one would be interested to know how the Visuddhimagga path of insight-knowledges lines up with the four levels of aryan attainment noted in the suttas, and where the eradication of fetters associated with the four aryan attainments come to cease in the model of insight knowledges. Where does the Stream-winner fit into the equation, for example? Must one go all the way to the end of the insight-knowledges to attain Stream-entry? And if that is so, what is the path for the rest of the road to arahantship? etc.

The Vism. developmental stages are a synthesis of MN 24 Rathavinīta Sutta, the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, and the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ñāṇakathā (along with some things from the Aṭṭhakathā and a few of Buddhagosa's own ideas). The noble paths arise within the stage of purification by knowledge and vision (ñāṇadassanavisuddhi) right after the knowledge of change of lineage (gotrabhuñāṇa). This is explained in Chapter 22 of the Vism.

Must one go all the way to the end of the insight-knowledges to attain Stream-entry?

Yes, pretty much.

And if that is so, what is the path for the rest of the road to arahantship? etc.

After the fruition of stream-entry if one wants to attain the next noble path s/he begins again with the insight knowledge of rise and fall and proceeds through to the knowledge of equanimity about fabrications, then again knowledge of change of lineage, attainment of the second noble path, etc.

[mikenz66]

Greetings,

This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

As this is what is taught by the Buddha in the Suttas (kindly referenced in detail by Geoff in his post above) I think it shows good reason why a "dark night" event or sequence of an events ought not be retrofitted back into the Buddha's sequence as standard, nor claimed to be taught as the Buddha's teaching. There is nothing in this sequence (sometimes called 'transcendental dependent origination') that includes or accommodates (let alone necessitates) such things...

The progress of insight sequence is seen as an interpretation and clarification of the above sequence, and other suttas.
There are more details in this thread:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11701" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
in particular around the area of this post:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 01#p177835" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mike

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Geoff,

Thanks for the overview. One final question of clarification...

And if that is so, what is the path for the rest of the road to arahantship? etc.

After the fruition of stream-entry if one wants to attain the next noble path s/he begins again with the insight knowledge of rise and fall and proceeds through to the knowledge of equanimity about fabrications, then again knowledge of change of lineage, attainment of the second noble path, etc.

What confuses me a bit here is that the nyāṇas are typically called "knowledges". If someone has to redo them from the beginning each time, to what extent can it be claimed that they actually "know" and have "knowledge" of the various insights? Surely they haven't forgotten the previously acquired "knowledge"? Why the need to demonstrate to oneself what one already has "known" to be true?

The way they're explained here sounds more like they may be better called "perceptions", "observations" or "experiences", if they really must be re-experienced and cultivated in order to proceed further.

Metta,
Retro.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Mike,

The progress of insight sequence is seen as an interpretation and clarification of the above sequence, and other suttas.

Yes, Geoff explained the synthesis involved in the post immediately above yours and I am satisfied with his explanation.

Metta,
Retro.

[Nyana]

What confuses me a bit here is that the nyāṇas are typically called "knowledges". If someone has to redo them from the beginning each time, to what extent can it be claimed that they actually "know" and have "knowledge" of the various insights? Surely they haven't forgotten the previously acquired "knowledge"? Why the need to demonstrate to oneself what one already has "known" to be true?

The way they're explained here sounds more like they may be better called "perceptions" or "experiences", if they really must be re-experienced and cultivated in order to proceed further.

Yes, both saññā and ñāṇa are derived from the verb root - √ñā (to know). Cf. this post. The former term is more common in the suttas, e.g. aniccasaññā, anicca dukkhasaññā, dukkha anattasaññā, virāgasaññā, nirodhasaññā, paṭinissaggasaññā, etc.

IMO the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ñāṇakathā (which is the source for the insight-knowledges in the Vism.) was originally composed as a treatise explaining Theravāda doctrine and theory. Hence the use of the term "ñāṇa." It is more of a pedagogical treatise than a meditation manual. This was then later understood as a good working model for describing how to develop insight as a method, eventually giving rise to the Vism.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Geoff,

Thanks - that's much clearer now.

Metta,
Retro.

[Ron Crouch]

Nana, you seem to be suggesting that one has cognitions in Nibbana -are you really saying that this is how it happens?

Well, there is no such thing as "in nibbāna." One has a cognition of nibbāna, i.e. a cognition of extinguishment. And cognitions always arise with concomitant mental factors (cetasikā). The Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha:

• 1. The First Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with initial application, sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  2. The Second Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with sustained application, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  3. The Third Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with joy, happiness, and one-pointedness,
  4. The Fourth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness,
  5. The Fifth Jhāna Sotāpatti Path-consciousness together with equanimity and one-pointedness.
  
  These are the five types of Sotāpatti Path-consciousness.
  
  So are the Sakadāgāmī Path-consciousness, Anāgāmī Path-consciousness, and Arahatta Path-consciousness, making exactly twenty classes of consciousness. Similarly there are twenty classes of Fruit-consciousness. Thus there are forty types of supramundane consciousness.

This accords with the basic path sequence as outlined in the suttas as follows: dissatisfaction (dukkha) → faith (saddhā) → gladness (pāmojja) → joy (pīti) → tranquility (passaddhi) → pleasure (sukha) → meditative composure (samādhi) → gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā) → dispassion (virāga) → liberation (vimutti) → gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa).

This developmental path sequence is found in SN 12.23 (S ii 29) Upanisa Sutta. This same developmental sequence, or significant portions of it, is also presented in Vin i 294, D i 73, D i 182, D i 207, D i 214, D i 232, D i 250, D iii 241, D iii 279, D iii 288, M i 37, M i 283, S iv 78, S iv 351-8, S v 156, S v 398, A i 243, A iii 21, A iii 285, A v 1-6, A v 312, A v 315, A v 317, A v 329, A v 333.

Nana - you are wonderful! I love all the references.

We are totally on the same page now.

There was a question from retro about how the DN lines up with this. Retro, you and I have disagreed mostly, but my understanding is that the insight knowledges line up in the "gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā)". Equanimity and the events of path follow. Nana, please chime in if you don't see it this way.

Again, this is beautiful! Thanks so much Nana.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Ron,

There was a question from retro about how the DN lines up with this. Retro, you and I have disagreed mostly, but my understanding is that the insight knowledges line up in the "gnosis & vision of things as they are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) → disenchantment (nibbidā)". Equanimity and the events of path follow.

So the process of learning to cultivate disenchantment with regards to what one has seen (rather than respond with it with unwholesome reactions like aversion) is the "process" of the Dark Night? Is that what you're saying?

(And you might be surprised to know, I have agreed with you on many things you've said, it's just that I've not explicitly placed a tick next to everything we agree on. Where there is already concurrence there's not much to talk about, and on some of the matters where we agree, I've not taken it further out of respect for others who may not find the reasons behind my concurrence to be "pleasing to the ear".)

Metta,
Retro.