New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

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Goob
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Goob »

Except that I would not say that he gave the clearest and concise meditation instruction, etc.
What exactly do you find problematic in Ven. T's interpretation of the relevant suttas and meditation instructions? I am not being defensive, just curious.
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

richard_rca wrote:
Except that I would not say that he gave the clearest and concise meditation instruction, etc.
What exactly do you find problematic in Ven. T's interpretation of the relevant suttas and meditation instructions? I am not being defensive, just curious.
Let me ask you: Are the suttas quoted by Ven Thanissaro open to other interpretations in terms of practice? Is his way of looking at things the only correct way and every one else's is wrong?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Goob
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Goob »

Let me ask you: Are the suttas quoted by Ven Thanissaro open to other interpretations in terms of practice? Is his way of looking at things the only correct way and every one else's is wrong?
My answer would be "no", there are plenty of useful and excellent interpretations out there aside from Ven Thannisaro's. I just like the way he frames things. The defensiveness in your answer is exactly why I wrote that I wasn't being protective either of my own practice or of Ven. T's interpretations, I would just simply like to know what exactly in his meditation instructions and his sutta interpretations you find questionable since you passively implied that you did and you seem to be a person who possesses a great deal of knowledge of these matters. Curiosity, no more, no less.
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badscooter
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

twelph wrote: Yes. Yuttadhammo believes in there being no judgments placed upon the objects(thoughts). He talks about "pure awareness".
I don't believe so.. VY stated:
"Generally translated as “mindfulness”, it is usually taken to mean “awareness” or “alertness”, both of which are ostensibly positive qualities of mind. “sati”, however, means neither."
with metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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badscooter
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

VY stated
So, sati would be better translated as “recognition”, and this is how it has been referred to throughout this chapter. It is deliberate and sustained recognition that in turn allows us to see the objects of experience as they truly are.
I believe you are saying the same thing.

When VY is talking about "this chapter", it is of his own book that he is writing.

:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
twelph
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by twelph »

From your post, YV states:
What it really means is to call to mind the objective nature of the experience, eschewing all projection, extrapolation or judgement about the object.
&
... once we fortify or reaffirm this recognition, not letting the mind move beyond simple awareness of the object for what it is, our minds will penetrate the nature of the object to the core, dispelling all doubt as its essential nature as something worth clinging to or not.
&
Reminding oneself of what one already recognizes in this way is equivalent to arresting the mind’s natural progression into projecting, judging, clinging, seeking, building up, and finally suffering.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu:
One of the most striking features of mindfulness as taught in the modern
world is how far it differs from the Canon's teachings on right mindfulness.
Instead of being a function of memory, it's depicted primarily--in some cases,
purely--as a function of attention to the present moment. Instead of being
purposeful, it is without agenda. Instead of making choices, it is choiceless and
without preferences.
In the words of two modern writers:
"Mindfulness is the quality of mind that notices what is present, without
judgment, without interference."
And when talking about even the possibility of stopping this process of judgment from occurring:
the simple question of whether such a moment of pure receptivity as a common stage of sensation actually exists. As we noted in the preceding chapter,
dependent co-arising gives a long list of factors that color awareness prior to
sensory contact--both in the process of causing suffering and stress, and in the
process of following the path
The main issue seems to be YV's use of the Abhidhamma, and Thanissaro's avoidance of it.
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badscooter
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

Oh I see.

Thanks :smile:

with metta
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

richard_rca wrote:
Let me ask you: Are the suttas quoted by Ven Thanissaro open to other interpretations in terms of practice? Is his way of looking at things the only correct way and every one else's is wrong?
My answer would be "no", there are plenty of useful and excellent interpretations out there aside from Ven Thannisaro's. I just like the way he frames things. The defensiveness in your answer is exactly why I wrote that I wasn't being protective either of my own practice or of Ven. T's interpretations, I would just simply like to know what exactly in his meditation instructions and his sutta interpretations you find questionable since you passively implied that you did and you seem to be a person who possesses a great deal of knowledge of these matters. Curiosity, no more, no less.
The problem I have is with Ven T's simplistic and unnecessary aggressiveness and not particularly accurate approach to the vipassana tradition. As for his specific meditation instructions, such the deliberate breath manipulation sort of thing, I have no interest in it. If it works for someone, fine.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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badscooter
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

Here is a link that might be of interest... It sheds some light of what VT is saying but in a more vipassana friendly way.

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/02 ... -not-sati/
with metta
:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

Billymac29 wrote:Here is a link that might be of interest... It sheds some light of what VT is saying but in a more vipassana friendly way.

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/02 ... -not-sati/
with metta
:anjali:
Interestingly, one can look at this as an ongoing dialogue about sati, bare attention, and such with such players, in addition to Ven Thanissaro, we have Vens Bodhi and Analayo and Rupert Gethin as well as the likes of Joseph Goldstein. Particularly after reading the book by Ven Thanisssaro, I can say that I am not a fan of his and am far less likely to turn to his writings for elucidation, but he is not wrong in asking for clarification of how such terms as sati, mindfulness, bare attention, sampajañña, yoniso manasikāra and the like are used, and discussion of these terms as we have in the linked articles and talks by the above are useful in in drawing a clearer understanding, which is good. And differing understandings is also not necessarily a bad thing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
ohnofabrications
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by ohnofabrications »

I am usually a big fan of thanissaro's, but he loses me here.

I would say the two methods are in fact different but still clearly aimed in the same direction. Let's take a practical example. I feel very angry because I had the perception that someone thought I was stupid. In my mind I am replaying the scenario, there is mental vedana and tension in my chest. If I recognized this and I was practicing bhante style, I would simply be aware of the thoughts and feelings, the thoughts would stop for a moment as I stopped fueling them, but I would forget to just engage in bare attention and would instead start recreating the thoughts. I would then again remember, through noticing that it is suffering to trap myself in that thought-world and I would go back to just attention. The tensions and mental vedana would likely persist as subtle thoughts are still occurring, but slowly it would die out, I would move towards just experiencing the world without creating these unfortunate mindstates. Over time, doing this again and again, I would slowly recognize more and more that the pure awareness is better, and furthermore the pure awareness would become more and more pure until eventually I'd become capable of truly desiring nothing. Fabrications are intentional and impermanent so if you stop intentionally creating (some of them) there will be less of them, and if you keep working at this you will get better at the method (practice makes perfect) and you will be able to fabricate none of them.
:woohoo:

With thanissaro's method, I would, upon recognizing the unfortunate mindstate begin to actively combat it, as he suggests. I would alter my pattern of breathing, working through the tension and mental vedana intentionally with visualization and directing breath energy. I would re-formulate my narratives about the scenario - were my rights really violated? does that person thinking of me as stupid really harm me? As such I would eventually exert a fabrication to still the unskillful fabrication. Over time I would do this a lot, lose my desire for negative fabrication and only fabricate jhanas, I would then apply essentially the method above to stop fabricating entirely/desiring nothing.
:woohoo:

Is one of these better? I'd have to say that from the pali canon the buddha's stance would be that the latter was better, but the former would still work, clearly in non-theravadan schools such as soto zen or dzogchen the former is relied on exclusively or almost exclusively.

I look forward to your criticisms - do you agree that both methods would work in roughly the way I suggested?
ohnofabrications
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by ohnofabrications »

ancientbuddhism wrote:
reflection wrote:Without reading the book fully, I think even if one would interpret sati as "just seeing what arises", that already incorporates an amount of memory or recollection. In the end, you have to remind yourself to see things just as they are. It's sati that comes in and says: "Oh wait, I'm getting dragged along here." How is that not memorizing what to do? So while I don't know each and every teachers perspective, from my personal practice, I think this division is generally a lot less present than Thanissaro makes it appear to be.
But this is where the whole present moment awareness concept becomes a problem, isn’t it? As one practitioner put it to me “Okay, I get to where I am present with things, now what?” But this is where knowledge of what is arising is to develop discernment of how the mind concocts and ruminates. This is where wisdom comes in.

spot on, thank you for pointing out this common practical issue which often dissuades people from the bare attention approach, and doubtless some people are more suited to skillful fabrication rather than attempted non-fabrication. bare attention is easy, but completely counter-intuitive, you can do it for a second but fear will likely arise and you will back off, again practice makes perfect, when you can do bare attention (fabricate nothing) perfectly you touch the deathless and gain stream entry.
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by marc108 »

ohnofabrications wrote:...
i love your username :jumping:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Anagarika
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Anagarika »

What an interesting and skillful analysis of these approaches. Nice work here, Ohno.

I won't weigh in necessarily on the two approaches. It may be true that the former approach may be useful for some people or situations, while the latter, or Ajahn Geoff's, may be useful for different situations. By saying this, I am really not saying much more than the obvious. What struck me was Ohno's analysis of the latter approach as being akin to the DBT (Dialectical Behavioral Therapy) modality for treating some personality disorders. My point in writing today was only to observe the amazing intersection and crossover of Dhamma with what western science/psychology has only recently discovered and developed. I haven't found an article by Ajahn Geoff that makes this connection, but others like Jack Kornfield, and more recently, Richard Davidson, PhD, have explored the Buddha's approach to meditation and have applied this to modern cognitive therapy and brain science. Very cool stuff. So many in psychology bow to Jung and Freud, when they might consider deep bows and prostrations to Siddhartha Gotama.
ohnofabrications wrote:I am usually a big fan of thanissaro's, but he loses me here.

I would say the two methods are in fact different but still clearly aimed in the same direction. Let's take a practical example. I feel very angry because I had the perception that someone thought I was stupid. In my mind I am replaying the scenario, there is mental vedana and tension in my chest. If I recognized this and I was practicing bhante style, I would simply be aware of the thoughts and feelings, the thoughts would stop for a moment as I stopped fueling them, but I would forget to just engage in bare attention and would instead start recreating the thoughts. I would then again remember, through noticing that it is suffering to trap myself in that thought-world and I would go back to just attention. The tensions and mental vedana would likely persist as subtle thoughts are still occurring, but slowly it would die out, I would move towards just experiencing the world without creating these unfortunate mindstates. Over time, doing this again and again, I would slowly recognize more and more that the pure awareness is better, and furthermore the pure awareness would become more and more pure until eventually I'd become capable of truly desiring nothing. Fabrications are intentional and impermanent so if you stop intentionally creating (some of them) there will be less of them, and if you keep working at this you will get better at the method (practice makes perfect) and you will be able to fabricate none of them.
:woohoo:

With thanissaro's method, I would, upon recognizing the unfortunate mindstate begin to actively combat it, as he suggests. I would alter my pattern of breathing, working through the tension and mental vedana intentionally with visualization and directing breath energy. I would re-formulate my narratives about the scenario - were my rights really violated? does that person thinking of me as stupid really harm me? As such I would eventually exert a fabrication to still the unskillful fabrication. Over time I would do this a lot, lose my desire for negative fabrication and only fabricate jhanas, I would then apply essentially the method above to stop fabricating entirely/desiring nothing.
:woohoo:

Is one of these better? I'd have to say that from the pali canon the buddha's stance would be that the latter was better, but the former would still work, clearly in non-theravadan schools such as soto zen or dzogchen the former is relied on exclusively or almost exclusively.

I look forward to your criticisms - do you agree that both methods would work in roughly the way I suggested?
ohnofabrications
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by ohnofabrications »

ohnofabrications wrote: With thanissaro's method, I would, upon recognizing the unfortunate mindstate begin to actively combat it, as he suggests. I would alter my pattern of breathing, working through the tension and mental vedana intentionally with visualization and directing breath energy. I would re-formulate my narratives about the scenario - were my rights really violated? does that person thinking of me as stupid really harm me? As such I would eventually exert a fabrication to still the unskillful fabrication. Over time I would do this a lot, lose my desire for negative fabrication and only fabricate jhanas, I would then apply essentially the method above to stop fabricating entirely/desiring nothing.

Some evidence for my above assertion that thanissaro bhikku himself teaches bare attention (with a different role in the path) but calls it something else:
thanissaro bhikku wrote: The move from equanimity to non-fashioning is briefly described in a famous passage:

"Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there's no you in that. When there's no you in that, there's no you there. When there's no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

— Ud 1.10

On the surface, these instructions might seem to be describing bare attention, but a closer look shows that something more is going on. To begin with, the instructions come in two parts: advice on how to train attention, and a promise of the results that will come from training attention in that way. In other words, the training is still operating on the conditioned level of cause and effect. It's something to be done. This means it's shaped by an intention, which in turn is shaped by a view. The intention and view are informed by the "result" part of the passage: The meditator wants to attain the end of stress and suffering, and so is willing to follow the path to that end. Thus, as with every other level of appropriate attention, the attention developed here is conditioned by right view — the knowledge that your present intentions are ultimately the source of stress — and motivated by the desire to put an end to that stress. This is why you make the effort not to add anything at all to the potentials coming from the past.

The need for right view would seem to be belied by the circumstances surrounding these instructions. After all, these are the first instructions Bahiya receives from the Buddha, and he attains Awakening immediately afterward, so they would appear to be complete in and of themselves. However, in the lead-up to this passage, Bahiya is portrayed as unusually heedful and motivated to practice. He already knows that Awakening is attained by doing, and the instructions come in response to his request for a teaching that will show him what to do now for his long-term welfare and happiness — a question that MN 135 identifies as the foundation for wisdom and discernment. So his attitude contains all the seeds for right view and right intention. Because he was wise — the Buddha later praised him as the foremost of his disciples in terms of the quickness of his discernment — he was able to bring those seeds to fruition immediately.

A verse from SN 35.95 — which the Buddha says expresses the meaning of the instructions to Bahiya — throws light on how Bahiya may have developed those seeds.


Not impassioned with forms
— seeing a form with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.
While one is seeing a form
— and even experiencing feeling —
it falls away and doesn't accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing stress,
one is said to be
in the presence of Unbinding.
(Similarly with sounds, aromas, flavors, tactile sensations, and mental qualities or ideas.)

— SN 35.95

Notice two words in this verse: mindfulness and dispassioned. The reference to mindfulness underlines the need to continually remind oneself of the intention not to add anything to any potentials from the past. This again points to the willed nature of the attention being developed here.

MN 106 offers an alternative way of expressing this intention, at the same time offering further analysis of the stages the mind goes through when it is kept in mind. The intention is this: 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon.'As the Buddha says in that discourse, a person who pursues this intention will abandon passion for sights, sounds, etc., and arrive at the equanimity of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. But if discernment isn't yet sharp enough, he or she will simply move the focus of passion from sensory and mental input to the equanimity itself, and thus stay fixated on that level. Thus the importance of the second word noted above — dispassion — which highlights the fact that passion is the crucial factor normally added to the seen, heard, sensed, and cognized, and thus the factor most needing to be undercut in every way possible.
I guess he thinks that when people teach bare attention and they say "don't interfere" with the flow of phenomena or whatever, that they are deluding themselves because it isn't possible. It seems clear to me that when they say "don't interfere" they mean just what he does:
The reference to mindfulness underlines the need to continually remind oneself of the intention not to add anything to any potentials from the past. This again points to the willed nature of the attention being developed here.
and
Thus, as with every other level of appropriate attention, the attention developed here is conditioned by right view — the knowledge that your present intentions are ultimately the source of stress — and motivated by the desire to put an end to that stress. This is why you make the effort not to add anything at all to the potentials coming from the past.
and from his teacher:
ajahn fuang wrote:Whenever anything hits you, let it go only as far as ‘aware’. Don’t let it go all the way into the heart.
Clearly this method works. You keep up the intention to not add any intention and eventually you succeed and drop everything as bahiya did.

So I'd have to say, thanissaro bhikku is actually completely right, meditation as they describe it if followed by a precise analytical mind such as his wouldn't lead anywhere, and it would make no sense within the pali canon, but the instructions they and their followers practice is, regardless effective.
Last edited by ohnofabrications on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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