New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Of course, such and such interpretor and commentator might be quite wrong, but simply stating he or she is wrong without actually doing the work of dismantling his or her argument does not raise the quality of the argumentation, either.
Sure. The "Four Great References" from the Mahaparinibbana sutta are an excellent guide here.
Not that you have shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Assaji »

tiltbillings wrote:Not that you have shown.
Not that you have seen : )
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Not that you have shown.
Not that you have seen : )
One cannot see what is not shown.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Buckwheat
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Buckwheat »

Forgive me, as I am only halfway through the book, but I'm going to try to get caught up on this thread.
tiltbillings wrote:Maybe, but he does not quote Goldstein, so it becomes hard to take what he says seriously as criticism of Goldstein, or any one else. It reads as a bit of a straw man argument. If one is going to argue against a postion, then put that position out there as accurately and fully as possible, then one should do one's best to beat it up, if it needs beating up. I do not see that as what has happened in this book.
This "bare attention" approach, no matter if there is a techer teaching it, seems to be getting picked up by students. It definitely seems to be "out there" in the Buddhist lexicon, so shouldn't it be fair to criticize the approach? Even if the actual good teachers have a context and more depth than a stripped down "bare attention", a lot of students seem to miss that. Maybe Ajaan Geoff should be seen as criticising, not the various teachers' understanding of the dhamma, but their methods for teaching the dhamma, whose "bare attention" approach may be dangerous to the casual student who's take away lesson may be to sit on the couch in "bare attention" doing whatever activities they please.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
twelph
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by twelph »

Buckwheat wrote:Forgive me, as I am only halfway through the book, but I'm going to try to get caught up on this thread.
tiltbillings wrote:Maybe, but he does not quote Goldstein, so it becomes hard to take what he says seriously as criticism of Goldstein, or any one else. It reads as a bit of a straw man argument. If one is going to argue against a postion, then put that position out there as accurately and fully as possible, then one should do one's best to beat it up, if it needs beating up. I do not see that as what has happened in this book.
This "bare attention" approach, no matter if there is a techer teaching it, seems to be getting picked up by students. It definitely seems to be "out there" in the Buddhist lexicon, so shouldn't it be fair to criticize the approach? Even if the actual good teachers have a context and more depth than a stripped down "bare attention", a lot of students seem to miss that. Maybe Ajaan Geoff should be seen as criticising, not the various teachers' understanding of the dhamma, but their methods for teaching the dhamma, whose "bare attention" approach may be dangerous to the casual student who's take away lesson may be to sit on the couch in "bare attention" doing whatever activities they please.
Excluding the controversies, what do you think about the book so far?
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

Buckwheat wrote:whose "bare attention" approach may be dangerous to the casual student who's take away lesson may be to sit on the couch in "bare attention" doing whatever activities they please.
This reasoning would make it much more understandable.

may you be well :anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by badscooter »

copied from another thread, though it would be good here too:
Words like "bare attention", "choiceless awareness", etc.. are not just genuine to the Theravada lineage. Such practices date back centuries in the Tibetan and Zen traditions of Mahayana tradition. Such meditations are used in Objectless Shinay and Shikantaza from Tibet and Zen respectively. These came into effect well before Krishnamurti, Nyanaponika, and Rupert Gethin were ever even born let alone a thought.

"On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.'

Dispassion - objectivity and detachment; the state or quality of being unemotional or emotionally uninvolved.
It seems as though Bhante Thanissaro has unskillfully ridiculed the practices of many Buddhists. To give his opinion on practice is one thing, but to down grade others in an attempt to show some sort of righteousness or authority is naive and unsophisticated. If his theories cannot stand on their own merit without trying to diminish others' teachings on the same subject, then his theories, in my opinion, can be looked upon as inefficient and vice.

Having said that, one wont truly know the effectiveness of his practice unless it is practice by himself/herself. Initial appearance of it, however, is bleak to me.

may all be well
:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Kamran
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Kamran »

It may not come across as clearly in his writing, but in his talks Ajaan Thanissaro's comparisons of other methods and traditions are not denigrating and are extremely informative.

Here's his take on Zen's "Buddha Nature" for example:

"The idea of innate natures slipped into the Buddhist tradition in later centuries, when the principle of freedom was forgotten. Past bad kamma was seen as so totally deterministic that there seemed no way around it unless you assumed either an innate Buddha in the mind that could overpower it, or an external Buddha who would save you from it. But when you understand the principle of freedom — that past kamma doesn't totally shape the present, and that present kamma can always be free to choose the skillful alternative — you realize that the idea of innate natures is unnecessary: excess baggage on the path."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ature.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Buckwheat »

Kamran wrote:It may not come across as clearly in his writing, but in his talks Ajaan Thanissaro's comparisons of other methods and traditions are not denigrating and are extremely informative.

Here's his take on Zen's "Buddha Nature" for example:

"The idea of innate natures slipped into the Buddhist tradition in later centuries, when the principle of freedom was forgotten. Past bad kamma was seen as so totally deterministic that there seemed no way around it unless you assumed either an innate Buddha in the mind that could overpower it, or an external Buddha who would save you from it. But when you understand the principle of freedom — that past kamma doesn't totally shape the present, and that present kamma can always be free to choose the skillful alternative — you realize that the idea of innate natures is unnecessary: excess baggage on the path."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ature.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This is another one where Ajaan Geoff seems to target the least common denominator of teachings, hopefully as a warning to avoid poor teaching methods and not a method for stirring up controversy. While this interpretation of buddha-nature is no doubt common, in "Opening the Hand of Thought" by Kosho Uchiyama, he states that Buddha-nature is nothing other than "one's capacity to awaken", meaning that we all have the capacity to awaken if we make the decisions in the here and now that lead to liberation instead of decisions that lead to suffering. I can agree with this idea for Buddha-nature as it is really just stating that no matter how bad you think you are, you can get out of the mud. Everybody can have liberation, but that does not mean they will. It still requires a lot of work.

I only point this out to show that when Ajaan Geoff criticizes a concept, he does find the parts that he has issue with, but I don't really think it's out of stirring controversy. He is pointing out where other teachings can be, and often are, misunderstood and misapplied by practitioners. I think the same is happening in his criticism of "bare attention".
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

Buckwheat wrote:I think the same is happening in his criticism of "bare attention".
The problem is, however, that Ven Thanisarro's criticism of bare attention is a criticism of a strawman.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Buckwheat
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Buckwheat »

Billymac29 wrote:copied from another thread, though it would be good here too:
Words like "bare attention", "choiceless awareness", etc.. are not just genuine to the Theravada lineage. Such practices date back centuries in the Tibetan and Zen traditions of Mahayana tradition. Such meditations are used in Objectless Shinay and Shikantaza from Tibet and Zen respectively. These came into effect well before Krishnamurti, Nyanaponika, and Rupert Gethin were ever even born let alone a thought.

"On whatever occasion a monk trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion'; trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.'

Dispassion - objectivity and detachment; the state or quality of being unemotional or emotionally uninvolved.
It seems as though Bhante Thanissaro has unskillfully ridiculed the practices of many Buddhists. To give his opinion on practice is one thing, but to down grade others in an attempt to show some sort of righteousness or authority is naive and unsophisticated. If his theories cannot stand on their own merit without trying to diminish others' teachings on the same subject, then his theories, in my opinion, can be looked upon as inefficient and vice.

Having said that, one wont truly know the effectiveness of his practice unless it is practice by himself/herself. Initial appearance of it, however, is bleak to me.

may all be well
:anjali:
Just because one has dispassion does not mean they are without a goal. I understand the main crux of Ajaan Geoff's criticism ofattention being that wrongly applied it negates chanda (desire, intent http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Chanda" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Wrongly applied, it also seems to prevent any experimenting with phenomena to see how they give rise to either attachment or dispassion. I think there's a role for bare attention, and I'm sure the teacher's that are mentioned in this thread can give great advice on how to apply it correctly, but there's also a misapplication of it that can be dangerous.
Last edited by Buckwheat on Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
Buckwheat
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Buckwheat »

tiltbillings wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:I think the same is happening in his criticism of "bare attention".
The problem is, however, that Ven Thanisarro's criticism of bare attention is a criticism of a strawman.
I sat in front of a teacher (not a good one) teaching exactly the position Ven Thanisarro is criticizing. I can't find a quote right now because I didn't like the teacher and didn't try to remember the name. I do not think he was famous, but people like him exist out there. You are probably right, that this is a strawman, IF you limit the argument to well known teachers.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

Buckwheat wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Buckwheat wrote:I think the same is happening in his criticism of "bare attention".
The problem is, however, that Ven Thanisarro's criticism of bare attention is a criticism of a strawman.
I sat in front of a teacher (not a good one) teaching exactly the position Ven Thanisarro is criticizing. I can't find a quote right now because I didn't like the teacher and didn't try to remember the name. I do not think he was famous, but people like him exist out there. You are probably right, that this is a strawman, IF you limit the argument to well known teachers.
No one is saying that crappy teaching and bollixed concepts do not happen, but that does not mean one should characterize all vipassana teachers based upon crappy teachings of a few. I do not find that Ven T's statements are at all balanced.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Buckwheat
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by Buckwheat »

tiltbillings wrote:No one is saying that crappy teaching and bollixed concepts do not happen, but that does not mean one should characterize all vipassana teachers based upon crappy teachings of a few. I do not find that Ven T's statements are at all balanced.
Oh, I guess I haven't got to the part of the book where he said "all vipassana teachers" have such and such view. My bad for entering discussion too early. I have a problem with Premature Deliberation.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Post by tiltbillings »

Buckwheat wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:No one is saying that crappy teaching and bollixed concepts do not happen, but that does not mean one should characterize all vipassana teachers based upon crappy teachings of a few. I do not find that Ven T's statements are at all balanced.
Oh, I guess I haven't got to the part of the book where he said "all vipassana teachers" have such and such view. My bad for entering discussion too early. I have a problem with Premature Deliberation.
If one characterizes a key teaching used by many vipassana teachers -- in this case "bare attention -- in a bad light without any nuance, it reflects upon all the teachers that use it, whether or not they are guilty of using the crappy version of that VenT finds so hedious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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