Hi all,
I think in this era of Dhamma downturn it's important to know our teacher's quality, unless it's ok to be taught by incompetent one. Anyone has any idea?
How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Maybe through the four traits as mentioned in AN 4.192. Notice it won't be easy since it'll take quite some time to find out the truth.. ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Or the Canki Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As Santa says, it takes some time and observation..."There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.
When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion ... delusion ...
When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.
Mike
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Greetings ignobleone,
The above posts and accompanying sutta references are very good.
From a personal, practical perspective, we don't need to know whether every single teacher out there is right for us - we just need to find (at least) one that is... and that one needn't exclude "textual teachers" such as the Buddha himself, as transmitted via the Sutta Pitaka, or the authors of ancient anthologies like the Visuddhimagga and Vimuttimagga, or the authors of more recent and well regarded compendiums on meditation and Dhamma practice.
In the quest towards finding (at least) one guide that works for you, feel free to ask questions here of Dhamma Wheel members and other Buddhist practitioners, asking for any reason why you would not take a particular teacher or reference as a guide. If after being appraised of any caveats you're satisfied with the guide(s) you have selected... then it's just a case of putting in the hard yards. In doing your research, you may as well leverage the thoughts, experiences and perspectives of other dedicated practitioners.
Metta,
Retro.
The above posts and accompanying sutta references are very good.
From a personal, practical perspective, we don't need to know whether every single teacher out there is right for us - we just need to find (at least) one that is... and that one needn't exclude "textual teachers" such as the Buddha himself, as transmitted via the Sutta Pitaka, or the authors of ancient anthologies like the Visuddhimagga and Vimuttimagga, or the authors of more recent and well regarded compendiums on meditation and Dhamma practice.
In the quest towards finding (at least) one guide that works for you, feel free to ask questions here of Dhamma Wheel members and other Buddhist practitioners, asking for any reason why you would not take a particular teacher or reference as a guide. If after being appraised of any caveats you're satisfied with the guide(s) you have selected... then it's just a case of putting in the hard yards. In doing your research, you may as well leverage the thoughts, experiences and perspectives of other dedicated practitioners.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
I think it's pretty presumptuous to believe one can or should assess the quality of others.ignobleone wrote: I think in this era of Dhamma downturn it's important to know our teacher's quality, unless it's ok to be taught by incompetent one. Anyone has any idea?
If a teacher's teachings are helpful for you then keep going back, if not then go elsewhere, but don't assume that a teacher that didn't do it for you is incompetent.
You could try some of the scriptural yardsticks that have been suggested here if you feel the need to judge, but if somebody has helped you and continues to help you then isn't that good enough?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Hi ignobleoneHow to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
The good teacher will invite the student to examine him/her, rather than avoiding or even prohibiting critique (as is often the case under the banner of "keeping faith/peace"), because there are none or at least considerably fewer "defiled states recognizable by the eye or ear consciousness" in a good teacher.
Vimamsaka Sutta - The Examination
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ta-e1.htmlBhikkhus, by the bhikkhu who could [not] examine the thought processes of another the Thus Gone One should be examined on two things. On things cognisable by eye consciousness and ear consciousness. Are defiled things cognisable by eye and ear consciousness evident in the Thus Gone One or are they not? When examining he knows. These defiled things cognisable by eye and ear consciousness [1] are not evident in the Thus Gone One. Then he should make a further examination: Are mixed things cognisable by eye and ear consciousness evident in the Thus Gone One or are they not? When examining he knows. These mixed things cognisable by eye and ear consciousness [2] are not evident in the Thus Gone One. Then he should make a further examination: Are pure things cognisable by eye and ear consciousness evident in the Thus Gone One or are they not? When examining he knows. The pure things cognisable by eye and ear consciousness [3] are evident in the Thus Gone One.
Then he should make a further examination. Has the venerable one attained to these things of merit since long or are they attained to recently? ...
Then he should further examine. Does the venerable one not indulge in sensuality, through destruction of greed or through fear? ...
Then the others should question that bhikkhu. On what grounds did the venerable one say, that the venerable one did not indulge in sensuality because greed is destroyed and not through fear? ...
Then further it may, even be questioned from the Thus Gone One himself: Are defiled things cognisable by eye and ear consciousness evident in the Thus Gone One or are they not? ...
Then the others should question that bhikkhu. On what grounds did the venerable one say, the Blessed One is rightfully enlightened, the Teaching is well proclaimed and the Community of bhikkhus have gone well? ...
Bhikkhus, in whomever faith is established in the Thus Gone One in this manner with these phrases and words, it becomes well established, thoroughly rooted faith and insight. ...
Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Hi, Goofaholix,Goofaholix wrote:I think it's pretty presumptuous to believe one can or should assess the quality of others.
If a teacher's teachings are helpful for you then keep going back, if not then go elsewhere, but don't assume that a teacher that didn't do it for you is incompetent.
You could try some of the scriptural yardsticks that have been suggested here if you feel the need to judge, but if somebody has helped you and continues to help you then isn't that good enough?
There are a couple of points here that I think are worth picking apart.
(1) We may not be able to "assess the quality of others" as human beings and probably shouldn't try but when it comes to assessing the knowledge and skill of someone who is providing a service to us - a plumber, a mechanic, a doctor - I think we should make the attempt.
(2) If we don't know much about drains, cars or medicine, we can't judge their competence on the basis of our own knowledge so we typically ask around. Or we ask about how to judge, which is what the OP did here.
(3) As a teacher myself (not of meditation!), I am well aware that some teachers of my subject are wrong in ways which a beginner can not be expected to be able to discern. The results of following such a teacher are typically that the student has to painfully unlearn misinformation or bad habits, and sometimes the effort is simply too great and they give up completely. That scenario, surely, is worth avoiding.
That said, "don't assume that a teacher that didn't do it for you is incompetent," is still sound advice in a subject as personal as meditation.
Kim
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Hi all,
@santa100
Thanks for the link, you give a very good, relevant sutta link. The sutta says:
@mikenz66
Yes it's true it takes some time and observation. The question is about what to observe, what clue can be used to know someone worth teaching or not.
@nibbuti
You come up with a very good, interesting point. Thanks.
Anyway, the title shows that I expect answers related specifically to meditation teacher, not to find a good teacher in general. I think so far no one has come up with a specifically relevant point.
@santa100
Thanks for the link, you give a very good, relevant sutta link. The sutta says:
I can say my question is all about to know whether the teacher is dull, or not discerning. It's most likely that such teacher will mislead students, and we know that spreading wrong view is a very bad kamma. So, this issue is important since we can then prevent people from getting misled at the same time prevent the teacher (unknowingly) from spreading wrong view.'It's through discussion that a person's discernment may be known, and then only after a long period, not a short period; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is discerning, not by one who is not discerning'
@mikenz66
Yes it's true it takes some time and observation. The question is about what to observe, what clue can be used to know someone worth teaching or not.
@nibbuti
You come up with a very good, interesting point. Thanks.
Anyway, the title shows that I expect answers related specifically to meditation teacher, not to find a good teacher in general. I think so far no one has come up with a specifically relevant point.
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Hi Goofaholix,Goofaholix wrote:I think it's pretty presumptuous to believe one can or should assess the quality of others.
If a teacher's teachings are helpful for you then keep going back, if not then go elsewhere, but don't assume that a teacher that didn't do it for you is incompetent.
You could try some of the scriptural yardsticks that have been suggested here if you feel the need to judge, but if somebody has helped you and continues to help you then isn't that good enough?
I should have defined more specifically what I mean by "incompetent". Incompetent = misleading.
You think assessing teacher's view is impossible while it's not so, it's easy. It's not about helpful, it's about correctness. I guess "helpful" for you is very subjective here. Helpful is not always correct for some cases, especially if you have no idea whether what you have been told is correct (since you never investigate, for example.)
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Hi Kim O'Hara, I completely agree with this point.Kim O'Hara wrote:Hi, Goofaholix,
There are a couple of points here that I think are worth picking apart.
(1) We may not be able to "assess the quality of others" as human beings and probably shouldn't try but when it comes to assessing the knowledge and skill of someone who is providing a service to us - a plumber, a mechanic, a doctor - I think we should make the attempt.
That was it.(2) If we don't know much about drains, cars or medicine, we can't judge their competence on the basis of our own knowledge so we typically ask around. Or we ask about how to judge, which is what the OP did here.
For this point I think you should distinguish between "the approach/way of teaching" and "what to teach". My question on the title is about "what to teach", whether the teacher teach right view or wrong view.(3) As a teacher myself (not of meditation!), I am well aware that some teachers of my subject are wrong in ways which a beginner can not be expected to be able to discern. The results of following such a teacher are typically that the student has to painfully unlearn misinformation or bad habits, and sometimes the effort is simply too great and they give up completely. That scenario, surely, is worth avoiding.
Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
What do you mean by "in general" and "specifical", ignoble one?ignobleone wrote:Anyway, the title shows that I expect answers related specifically to meditation teacher, not to find a good teacher in general. I think so far no one has come up with a specifically relevant point.
Almost everything said and quoted here relates directly and specifically to the topic and question regarding meditation teacher, even if it doesn't say "meditation teacher" per se.
Are you sure your self of how you define "meditation teacher"?
Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
I thought the sutta I quoted was very practical.ignobleone wrote: @mikenz66
Yes it's true it takes some time and observation. The question is about what to observe, what clue can be used to know someone worth teaching or not. n teacher, not to find a good teacher in general. I think so far no one has come up with a specifically relevant point.
It is significant that the first two sets of qualities mentioned in the sutta are easy to observe, and don't require expert knowledge.
So that provides a useful initial filter that anyone can easily use.qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion,
The final set is, of course, more difficult, and would take more time, observation, and cross-checking:
So a beginner is not being asked to assess whether the teacher is "correct". I think that this is an important point, because when one is learning something it is very difficult to assess whether a teacher is knowledgeable, and "second guessing" the teacher can be extremely counter-productive.qualities based on delusion
In hindsight, my Dhamma investigation started by using the first two criteria, and I'm sometimes surprised that relative beginners think that they can jump to the third and assess whether teacher X is correct or not.
Mike
Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Okay ... but in practice they are hard to separate. For instance, the sequence of instruction is "the approach/way of teaching" and also "what to teach" in the short term. So is the choice of meditation techniques and subjects (if you browse the forum here you will find that many members have used many different techniques at different stages and for different reasons, but they haven't learned them all at once).ignobleone wrote:For this point I think you should distinguish between "the approach/way of teaching" and "what to teach". My question on the title is about "what to teach", whether the teacher teach right view or wrong view.(3) As a teacher myself (not of meditation!), I am well aware that some teachers of my subject are wrong in ways which a beginner can not be expected to be able to discern. The results of following such a teacher are typically that the student has to painfully unlearn misinformation or bad habits, and sometimes the effort is simply too great and they give up completely. That scenario, surely, is worth avoiding.
I think you have to go back to Mike's suggestions (Canki sutta and his follow-up).
Good luck!
Kim
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
Hypocrisy = Ignorance + Ego - Mettamikenz66 wrote:I thought the sutta I quoted was very practical.ignobleone wrote: @mikenz66
Yes it's true it takes some time and observation. The question is about what to observe, what clue can be used to know someone worth teaching or not. n teacher, not to find a good teacher in general. I think so far no one has come up with a specifically relevant point.
It is significant that the first two sets of qualities mentioned in the sutta are easy to observe, and don't require expert knowledge.So that provides a useful initial filter that anyone can easily use.qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion,
The final set is, of course, more difficult, and would take more time, observation, and cross-checking:So a beginner is not being asked to assess whether the teacher is "correct". I think that this is an important point, because when one is learning something it is very difficult to assess whether a teacher is knowledgeable, and "second guessing" the teacher can be extremely counter-productive.qualities based on delusion
In hindsight, my Dhamma investigation started by using the first two criteria, and I'm sometimes surprised that relative beginners think that they can jump to the third and assess whether teacher X is correct or not.
I will explain if you don't understand.
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?
You still don't get it. You and Mike are no different. If you read Canki sutta you'll find saddha is at the top among the most helpful quality. Without saddha and understanding it, Good luck!Kim O'Hara wrote:Okay ... but in practice they are hard to separate. For instance, the sequence of instruction is "the approach/way of teaching" and also "what to teach" in the short term. So is the choice of meditation techniques and subjects (if you browse the forum here you will find that many members have used many different techniques at different stages and for different reasons, but they haven't learned them all at once).ignobleone wrote:For this point I think you should distinguish between "the approach/way of teaching" and "what to teach". My question on the title is about "what to teach", whether the teacher teach right view or wrong view.(3) As a teacher myself (not of meditation!), I am well aware that some teachers of my subject are wrong in ways which a beginner can not be expected to be able to discern. The results of following such a teacher are typically that the student has to painfully unlearn misinformation or bad habits, and sometimes the effort is simply too great and they give up completely. That scenario, surely, is worth avoiding.
I think you have to go back to Mike's suggestions (Canki sutta and his follow-up).
Good luck!
Kim