Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

During meditation, I have always seen myself as the driver of my breath. I'm guessing this probably came about from doing yoga and using the breath as a timer for each pose. Maybe I picked the habit up even before the yoga, I'm not sure.

Anyways, I am starting to learn anapanasati and during practice today, while working on the initial steps of determining the quality of each in and out breath, it occurred to me that I was controlling my breath and therefore ultimately the quality of my breath. My breathing was no longer autonomous. I decided to try to see if I could return my breath to its autonomous state and still follow it and I think I was successful. I noticed my breathing became much more shallow and I think that it became more chesty than when I control it to be more abdominal.

So which way is the right way? It's there a right way? Should I drive my breath or just grade it from the passenger seat?

Thank you.

Mojo

if the breath becomes very subtle, you don't need to control it or breathe deeper. it's just a sign the meditation is progressing.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I made a reply to this, then after this morning's meditation, thought that since my own practice keeps evolving, that means I ought to be careful about making comments that could be construed as suggestions for how one could practice, the reason being that I myself still have so much to learn, and I don't even want to take the risk that anything I said could be in error (not that even meditation masters seem to be in consensus about it, but still).

All I'm going to say is that my experience this morning seemed to be more in line with how Thanissaro Bhikkhu explains anapanasati - and that I'm going to give his writings and talks a hearty recommendation.

In peace and metta

to which i would reply in praise of caffeine

Mojo wrote:During meditation, I have always seen myself as the driver of my breath. I'm guessing this probably came about from doing yoga and using the breath as a timer for each pose. Maybe I picked the habit up even before the yoga, I'm not sure.

Anyways, I am starting to learn anapanasati and during practice today, while working on the initial steps of determining the quality of each in and out breath, it occurred to me that I was controlling my breath and therefore ultimately the quality of my breath. My breathing was no longer autonomous. I decided to try to see if I could return my breath to its autonomous state and still follow it and I think I was successful. I noticed my breathing became much more shallow and I think that it became more chesty than when I control it to be more abdominal.

So which way is the right way? It's there a right way? Should I drive my breath or just grade it from the passenger seat?

Thank you.

Mojo

Thanissaro teaches that the breath is much more voluntary than we think and that the deeper one goes with anapansati the clearer this becomes. I remember arguing with Professor Tiltbillings et al about this a while back but until the search function's fixed (this is not a complaint ) I'm not looking for it and good luck to you, Mojo, if you try. It's probably worth a look at, though--in my opinion.

Mojo wrote:Should I drive my breath or just grade it from the passenger seat?

Sati (watch) the breath such that you calm kaya-sankhara (body-involvement).

There is no such thing as feel of breath in chesty or abdominal. Anapanasati basically is applying concentration on one sense - breath so that all five other senses are closed. Practitioners of this method should apply breath focus in daily routine like meal time etc

Nyorai wrote:There is no such thing as feel of breath in chesty or abdominal. Anapanasati basically is applying concentration on one sense - breath so that all five other senses are closed. Practitioners of this method should apply breath focus in daily routine like meal time etc

I haven't heard this interpretation before. What is the basis of this assertion?

danieLion wrote:Thanissaro teaches that the breath is much more voluntary than we think and that the deeper one goes with anapansati the clearer this becomes. I remember arguing with Professor Tiltbillings et al about this a while back but until the search function's fixed (this is not a complaint ) I'm not looking for it and good luck to you, Mojo, if you try. It's probably worth a look at, though--in my opinion.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=40

Samma wrote:

danieLion wrote:Thanissaro teaches that the breath is much more voluntary than we think and that the deeper one goes with anapansati the clearer this becomes. I remember arguing with Professor Tiltbillings et al about this a while back but until the search function's fixed (this is not a complaint ) I'm not looking for it and good luck to you, Mojo, if you try. It's probably worth a look at, though--in my opinion.

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=40

Yep, that's the one. Thanks. It's helpful to see that there's not an easy answer. The idea that breathing becomes imperceptible (not necessarily switching from breathing with the lungs to breathing solely through the skin like I argued before--I'm not so sure at this point--and Thanissaro and his teachers teach-Lee, Fuang) in fourth jhana is taught by most teachers I've read on the subject (the latest being Pau Auk; but I can't remember the reference right now).

I also swithced from yoga breathing (pranayama) to anapanasati.

I try not to think about if I should "drive" my breath or "just watch" it. I suppose it's ultimately a matter of perception (sanna). I do, however, often find just using the directed thought/evaluation of "where/when you perceive the breath as voluntary, let it go," as one of the best, if not the best ways (for me) to keep my mind absorbed in my breath--and it simultaneously serves the calming intentions, not to mention augmenting the jhana factors.

I don't know if there's a right way, but I doubt there's one way right for everyone. Maybe I'll find a better way later, but this is the "rightest" I've found to date.

i struggle with this as well.

for me what happens is i get into a super deep state of meditation where everything fades but awareness of my mind, then i notice i'm not breathing! and so i try to ignore it, i still don't breathe, try to ignore, no breath, and finally, i just breathe. it's weird. not sure how to get around this.

alan... wrote:i struggle with this as well.

for me what happens is i get into a super deep state of meditation where everything fades but awareness of my mind, then i notice i'm not breathing! and so i try to ignore it, i still don't breathe, try to ignore, no breath, and finally, i just breathe. it's weird. not sure how to get around this.

Why are you trying to ignore your breathing when your'e doing mindfulness of breathing? Also, for the OP, do you perceive it as voluntary, involuntary, both, neither?

danieLion wrote:

alan... wrote:i struggle with this as well.

for me what happens is i get into a super deep state of meditation where everything fades but awareness of my mind, then i notice i'm not breathing! and so i try to ignore it, i still don't breathe, try to ignore, no breath, and finally, i just breathe. it's weird. not sure how to get around this.

Why are you trying to ignore your breathing when your'e doing mindfulness of breathing? Also, for the OP, do you perceive it as voluntary, involuntary, both, neither?

It is involuntary until I try to watch it, in which case it becomes voluntary. I'm not sure if I should keep it voluntary or try to move my awareness out a bit so that I can observe my breathing while in it's involuntary state if possible.

Mojo wrote:

danieLion wrote:

alan... wrote:i struggle with this as well.

for me what happens is i get into a super deep state of meditation where everything fades but awareness of my mind, then i notice i'm not breathing! and so i try to ignore it, i still don't breathe, try to ignore, no breath, and finally, i just breathe. it's weird. not sure how to get around this.

Why are you trying to ignore your breathing when your'e doing mindfulness of breathing? Also, for the OP, do you perceive it as voluntary, involuntary, both, neither?

It is involuntary until I try to watch it, in which case it becomes voluntary. I'm not sure if I should keep it voluntary or try to move my awareness out a bit so that I can observe my breathing while in it's involuntary state if possible.

I don't have an answer to this, so I'm not playing Socrates here, but how do you know it's not voluntary when you don't watch it? For instance, if you have a full bladder, decide to hold it, then forget about it for a few minutes via some distraction, does that render your "sub-conscious" or "un-conscious" holding of it while you're preoccupied involuntary (this might relate to operant conditioning too)?

Well, I haven't died in my sleep yet. *knock wood*